Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26912075-20170305214816/@comment-34882417-20181025212428

Nixeu wrote: Infant&#039;s Isopod wrote:

Nixeu wrote: ...Okay, you know what? Let's set some rules, shall we? Because I find that "could x Stand beat y Stand" is a much, much more annoying discussion than "is it likely that x Stand could beat y Stand". In ideal conditions, sure, Josuke MIGHT, possibly, beat GER. Of course, in ideal conditions, there are a lot of Stands that could do that.

Instead, let's look at how battles actually play out in the manga. Generally, at best, both parties in a fight in Jojo know a small amount about the opposing Stand. More often, either both sides are operating blind, or one side knows a bit, just from rumor and reputation. Neither side, however, tends to know the nitty-gritty of how the opposing Stand actually works, as such details are often kept secret by the user and his allies.

Now, in that sort of scenario, who wins? Let's say they both know a little about the opposing Stands, what's obvious from previous fights (ignoring, of course, that very few people survived fighting Gio even before he got GER, and thus few understood what he could do). Is it at all obvious from combat that Gold Experience Reqiuem is an evolved Stand? No, no it's not. The only people who know that are Trish, Turtle-Polnareff Mista, and maybe Fugo, I doubt any of them advertise it.

It's been made quite clear that Crazy Diamond reverts what Josuke wants reverted, how he wants it reverted, and nothing more or less. In other words, if he doesn't know that GER is a Reqiuem Stand, he can't revert it. So, in this scenario, he loses. Because giving GER any time to act, down to a nanosecond, is fatal. In any scenario where he knows nothing about how Gold Experience Reqiuem, a Stand even it's user doesn't understand fully, he loses. The only scenario in which Josuke even Stands a chance is when he knows Gold Experience Reqiuem's secrets, which even Giorno himself is not fully aware of, and gets the drop on GER while it's summoned. Without knowing he needs to revert GER before it can act, he's doomed. Without being able to do so before it can act, he's doomed. Overall, he's just kinda doomed in general.

Funnily enough, barring The World Over Heaven, and maybe Made in Heaven (though I find it unlikely even it would be spared), this works out about the same with every other Stand. Which is probably why Araki regretted making GER: it's power is anthetical to how his fights work, because it using it's powers are so hard to fully understand, even if observed. And observing it's powers is next-to-impossible, because they're so lethal and difficult to understand, and the fact that they're disjointed (immunity to time-stops, able to seemingly heal the user from any wound, which could easily be linked to it's ability to create life, and then it punches you, and you look like you disappear, when you're actually in a death-loop) doesn't help.

As for just plain GE vs CD, that's a closer fight. That said, GE has a major advantage over CD: it can heal it's User. And Giorno does have significantly more experience with life-or-death battles, and is much more ruthless and brutal to boot. His planning ability also seems more refined than Josuke's. I'd say it's tilted in Giorno's favor, but not so extremely that Josuke doesn't stand a chance. Josuke has the edge in raw strength, but GE's power is much more versatile, and that inability of CD's to heal Josuke is a huge handicap. I could easily see the fight being a draw, where Josuke might kill Gio...but then Josuke dies from something like the venom of creature Gio made, or just being eaten from the inside by something GE punched and transformed that got lodged in him. Could go either way, though. ... I'm pretty sure GER's ability is passive. And even if it isn't, Crazy Diamond clearly wouldn't be able to get the drop on it considering Requiem was able to react to and retaliate against attacks Giorno wasn't even aware of. Considering Star Platinum could do the same, it's fair to assume sentient, or semi-sentient Stands are fully aware of everything that's going on around their users even if they aren't summoned. Your theory also omits one of Gold Experience's more obscure abilities, Life Sensor, which literally allowed it to sense any and all life forms in the vicinity, including any souls within said life forms.

Made in Heaven is even more unlikely to win considering Araki himself said he reluctantly chose not to include Giorno in Part 6 because he'd turn the MiH fight into a literal joke. You say that like I was saying they could really win. Yes, potentially, if all the right things happen, they could. In the most absolutely technical sense. As in, "yes, you have a vanishingly small chance to randomly phase through that wall, because quantum physics is weird like that" levels of technical. I was being as absolutely generous as I felt I could be, running through several possible scenarios...and still ended up with the Stands they proposed dying in the vast majority of the scenarios. Especially under the normal conditions of Jojo fights. Which was the point of my post: in totally, absolutely ideal conditions, yes, they could beat GER. But not in a practical scenario.

Life Sense is a good point, but all that does is raise the already difficult task of getting the complete drop on the ever-guarded Giorna, and insanely fast GER, from "probably need a stealth Stand to help" to "stealth/speed Stand aid required". Although, I'm not sure it's a passive ability, so it might be quite that effective.

And yes, I'm aware Araki has said GER would kick Made in Heaven's ass. That doesn't stop people from arguing about it. And it is one of the few Stands I could see as having even a shred of a chance against GER, purely because of it's speed. But even that's unlikely to save it under anything but absolutely ideal conditions. I guess we'll never know. The only thing that could put these arguments to rest is Araki flat-out saying that GER's ability is passive, which I doubt will ever happen. Oh well.