Talk:Atum/@comment-30066230-20171205010211/@comment-4959537-20171208202624

"The user's objectives have absolutely nothing to do with their stands' powers"

We are speaking about the same series at all? As a reflection on the user's fighting spirit, the user's life goals are a crucial part to understand his/her stand, Tonio wanted to become the best cook and make food to make ppl healthy, Kira wanted to erase all evidence of his crimes to live a peaceful life, Diavolo wanted to rule over fate and so on, but you say that's is just "luck" and not the user's unique personality and goals influecing their stands powers? Sorry, but multiple examples point to the contrary.

My point bringing those "chains" is to point out how each one of those battles even with similar stands at superficial level, they are extremely different, with different locations, different conditions, against different stands with the user exploring his stand in different ways by managing their strenghts and weakness, but if you want to disregard all of that and look only on "sheer capacity" to say that a stand sucks, well be my guest, but I disagree, let's not forget that with Atum you couldn't tell the "D'Arby the Gambler" story arc, which I belive most fans prefer over the "D'Arby the Gamer" arc, sometimes less is more.

(Oh, authors revisiting concepts to flesh them out better or just twist them a little? Yeah, I was in shock when I figured that one out, I always whought that was just magic!)

Daniel's need to "test" his touch shows that this ability has nothing to do with the stand, bc stand powers always work so he wouldn't have the need to assure himself? Sure, then...

But that's not my point, the user doesn't need to summon his stand to use some of its habilities like you said in your first post and that those inherent skills COULD be related to the stand like a evolution of extension of them, Rohan already was a superhuman artist before having HD or Mista was a natural marksman even before aquiring Sex Pistols, in both cases those natural talents became a stand, so I think the same applies with Daniel and his gambling, as the stand and the user complement each other.

Atum would beat Osiris physically, but I'm not so sure about getting souls faster, Osiris at least can materialize them in the form of physical poker chips, Telence was to manually craft a puppet and then insert the soul (but for the sake of the argument, let's assume that he can insert them into any inanimate ohject) so there's a little difference, Osiris can materialize souls into physical objects while Atum can't.