Board Thread:Fanmade/@comment-34013154-20181112223306/@comment-43786043-20190924134115

RIUX1 wrote: Zodazzle wrote: ...What? Are you seriously comparing speeds by their visible punches in the manga (that are also over a decade apart) rather than their actual stats? Star Platinum has an A, and Tusk Act 4 has a B. Literally look at the stats and there you go. Besides, Star Platinum has been said to exceed the speed of light, and Tusk Act 4 can't apply to that. So it's definite that Star Platinum is faster. Stop digging for evidence of speed in the manga, which keep in mind aren't in motion. I don't think this argument has been resolved yet, so I thought I'd put in my piece. First off, the fuck are you doing comparing stand stats?! Those aren't just signs of physical strength, so stop using them as such. They can also be used to showcase a stand's ability. This is fact. The main argument I'm seeing on Star Platinum's side is that Star pummels Tusk into the ground before Tusk Act 4 activates his Infinite Spin. This is supported by his Stand Stats.

First off, if you think using stand stats as a reference, broken as they are, is a good idea, then take a look at D4C. Tusk Act 4 beat the living shit out of him and D4C SHARES STATS WITH STAR PLATINUM. You might make the argument 'oh, Valentine was just so shocked at seeing Tusk break his barrier he let is guard down'. This is not true. D4C had time to react and hide further inside the light, and then get totally pummelled. That is fact.

Another fact, taken directly from the manga: Tusk Act 4 is the embodiment of the infinite rotation. This is also stated as the first line under the 'Infinite Rotation' section of it's powers in this very wiki. Tusk Act 4 does not just control the Infinite Rotation, it is the Infinite Rotation, in a very real sense. This is also why Tusk's Infinite Rotation is seen as an image of the Stand, even when travelling across the floor like in his fight with Diego AU.

Not to mention the fact that while Johnny always pulls his punches, Jotaro doesn't necessarily ever timestop unless he absolutely needs to. For example, he waited until Crazy Diamond had hit him before he used SP:TW. In that situation, Johnny will come out on top no matter what.

Also, I've seen earlier in the chat people say that SP:TW stops everything nearby. That is clearly false. It only speeds itself up to be FTL. Examples of this include Pucci being able to move in timestop and whaddya know, Act 4 himself being able to move thanks to the fact that no matter how far you slow down infinite rotation, it will still be infinite. That is certainly how Tusk moved in timestop, taking into account everything else laid out here. Because Tusk and the Infinite Rotation are one and the same, it is simple logic to say that the Infinite Rotation will carry on moving in timestop, if Tusk can. However, Tusk has a limit to the time it can move in timestop, so let's assume that this would either slightly slow down the Infinite Rotation or make sure it can only be transferred by itself for a few of  Jotaro's 'seconds'.

Edit:

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Just remembered seeing in the chat people saying that Star Platinum is definitively the 'strongest Stand ever'. If this is a quote or fact from around Part 3, please remember that Part 3 was going to be the only part with Stands when Araki made it, when he thought JoJo's would be a trilogy.

If the quote isn't from Part 3, then the only actual piece of evidence I could find was in Stone Ocean: 'Star Platinum can stop time only for a few seconds. The strongest Stand ability ever.' Take this quote with a grain of salt since this came right after Araki wrote G.E.R in Part 5

Araki also says that it is the strongest Stand in interviews and that 'only with time control can you beat him'. Firstly, Act 4 has some time control since it can move in timestop. Secondly, if Star Platinum were to get hit by Tusk's rotation in a way that Star could've prevented, then he might not be technically seen as 'beaten' since it wasn't a fair fight. Tusk Act 4 can fall under both of these parameters, as you'll see later.

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As a side note, people take Star Platinum breaking through diamond as a large feat. Diamond does not even remotely equate to an absolute barrier, or the solid 'no' comparable even to the likes of G.E.R that Tusk broke through.

Finally, I draw my conclusion. Let's just say that both characters went into the fight with killing intent. For the sake of argument, Jotaro stops time before Johnny does anything, since he's the more experienced out of the two. If Star Platinum rushes up and pummels Tusk Act 4 for the entirety of his timestop, or even most of it, Tusk will have been in physical contact with SP. Even if it could move for only a second in stopped time, a second is all it takes to kill Jotaro. As we proved earlier, Tusk Act 4 is the Infinite Rotation in every sense of the word, so he clearly doesn't need to transfer the Spin through his fists. I say this because other people say SP would be crushing him too hard to do anything, but that doesn't make a difference to Tusk Act 4. Thanks to the D4C fight, we know Tusk is at least comparable to a stand with Star Platinum Stats, so even if you want to go down that route of logic, Tusk wouldn't be crushed by Star and would still be able to land a punch on him. Even if Star is way stronger as some people say, that doesn't make a difference since all Johnny needs is any form of physical contact. If you think about it this way, Diego AU throwing knives while in timestop makes the most sense, since he wouldn't have a chance of being affected by the Spin.

This has been a long one, but I hope I've changed some people's minds on this topic. I've tried to include as much evidence from the manga and respected sources as possible, so hopefully I haven't messed up anything too badly.

Arigato (Gyro!),

Riux Well, well, well, this is a lot to unpack.

For 1, with the stand stats, they are inaccurate, but they aren't neccesarily bullshit. Star Platinum's A and D4C's A can be different. A doesn't correlate to a specific amount of force. However, I agree that stand stats don 't make a lot of sense. They don't mean that D4C is just as powerful as Star Platinum.

For 2, what is your argument about time stop even saying? This doesn't make sense. You say that time stop speeds up the user, but how does that make the user control gravity's effect on themself? Dio does that multiple times, and his and Jotaro's time stops are the same. Time stop, get this, stops time. It's in the name. After you throw something it stops moving, after you punch someone they stop moving. Jotaro was able to use a magnet to move his finger, so do magnets pull things at lightspeed? Pucci wasn't able to move in stopped time, his Made In Heaven sped up time to the point where time stop lasted only an instant. Also, your argument for ACT 4 being immune to it is contradictory. Speeding up the user doesn't slow down anything else, so ACT 4 moving in stopped time, by your argument, would be speeding up the same way. If you can't stop infinity, then why can ACT 4 only move his eye's and not punch while time is stopped? That sounds to me like Diego is stopping infinity.

For 3, the wiki isn't written by Araki. It is written by people on this site. The wiki stating that Tuck ACT 4 is the embodiement of the infinite rotation is from fans. If anything, Ball Breaker is the embodiement of Spin in general. The infinite rotation is a power of Tusk ACT 4. Tusk itself isn't the spin, Tusk is a perfect conduit of Spin, like Hermit Purple is for Hamon. Tusk makes your Spin stronger, and the only thing stronger than the Golden Spin is the Infinite Rotation. When does he conduct the infinite rotation through a touch? Stop with your headcanon bullshit and state a specific chapter or copy/paste a manga panel. There are multiple free sources for reading JOJO online. Otherwise, don't make an argument you can't back up, that goes against specific statements from the manga and Araki himself. Ever heard of the "word of god" rule? If Araki is talking about Star Platinum being the strongest, right after GER, well, he says himself that he forgets his past work. But, when he states that Ball Breaker is the stand of the Spin, that means that Tusk isn't Spin, it's literally stated to just be a perfect conduit, that amplifys Spin.It's in the same part, part 7, Steel Ball Run, so it should stay at least semi-consistent, if trends set by other parts stay. If you can't explain your point correctly, then point people to where your point is stated or shown. For example, Star Platinum is shown to be faster than Silver Chariot, sheen when Star Platinum had enough speed to best Dio's The World while Dio stated that if Polnareff was a little faster (which would give him more force), then he would've killed DIO, and Silver Chariot is Shown to be faster than light, as seen when he creates afterimages which can be calulated to be beyond lightspeed with real math given the amount of afterimages he creates, and it is also shown in the Hanged Man fight, when Silver Chariot outspeeds a character stated to be lightspeed. Tusk ACT 4 has no feats or statements saying that he's lightspeed, other than your own. Star Platinum is shown taking blows from The World, and taking them like a champ, while dealing greater damage to The World, showing that SP is either stronger than The World, more durable then The World, or both. Unless SP:TW is affected by Spin through contact, which again, site a chapter or show a panel, then Star Platinum is victorious. Jotaro isn't stupid either, he figures out opposing stands without much trouble. Kakyoin is smarter, but Jotaro is no slouch. He has fought opponets with OHKO abilities before, and it is reasonable to assume that he could figure out that everything this stand touches, presumablle including the ground if, like you say, he conducts the Infinite Rotation with mere contact, starts spinning, then maybe he should touch the stand and instead use SP:TW's stop time to blitz and pummel Johnny. Or throw a rock at him, like how he beat the user of The Sun. Jotaro has seen literally invincible stands before, he has a tendency to go after the user if he can get past the stand, as seen with Yellow Temperance.

I know this might sound like I'm being an ass, but your argument seems to contradict itself. Please, clarify your points that are contradictory if you meant something else, and please show statements or manga panels/chapter numbers/anime episodes to back up your argument. Or, be specific in when these feats take place, so that it's easy to find them if someone wants to make a counterpoint. Don't just use headcanon arguments of "well this is how I think this stand actually works", figure out the real abilities from the manga and the author.