Someone please explain to me Kakyoin's appeal. The guy has the personality of a leatherback armchair.
Yeah I gotta admit, this isn't a particularly compelling theory. I really don't mean to be rude, but this theory is based almost entirely off speculation. Stand evolution alone is not the same thing as Requiem. Requiem is stated and shown to specifically require the use of the arrow, and other Stands have undergone significant evolution without its use. I mean, Star Platinum develops an entirely new ability at the end of Stardust Crusaders, but nobody would call it Requiem.
Echoes and Tusk are not good examples, because both of them have outstanding circumstances that contribute to their weirdness. Echoes ACT 3 is just Koichi's proper Stand, but since he didn't have the mental strength to control it, he unlocked its power in stages, hence ACTs 1 and 2. That doesn't make ACT 3 a Requiem Stand, it just makes it a Stand.
Tusk is a whole different can of worms, as it's intrinsically tied to the Spin, and Johnny's development of it is based on his skill and capability with the Spin. You could argue that Tusk is just a conductor, and the various ACTs are just different Spin techniques using different levels of energy, and have no basis on Johnny's mental strength. I'm not saying it's true, but it has more evidence than ACT 4 being a Requiem Stand.
The only Stands we can say for certain are Requiem Stands are Chariot Requiem and Gold Experience Requiem. They undergo a dramatic change in how the Stand functions and involve the use of a particular arrow. There's not enough evidence in your theory to say those things aren't requirements.
Thebannanaworkshop wrote: in canon he just nulled ger like he nulled tusk.
Your first mistake is taking TWOH as canon, cause it's not.
Lack of evidence against something is not evidence in favor of it. GER and Made in Heaven never fight so we cannot assume GER works or doesn't based off of that.
GER was created to defeat a time-skipping Stand that alters fate. Made in Heaven isn't that different from King Crimson conceptually. But since they never fight in canon, we have to guess based of what we've seen them do, not what we haven't.
I don't think that has anything to do with Pucci's Stand tho. That's the bond allowing family members to sense each other that Jojo does all the time, like how Joseph and Jotaro could sense DIO, or Trish detecting Diavolo. Weather and Pucci are brothers. I might be misremembering the fight but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
No I was more referring to Made in Heaven being able to shape fate... because that's wrong. Made in Heaven can only alter the fate of people that Pucci has killed and replaced in the new universe, not just anyone he wants. Also, even if that where the case, fate has never been a hindrance for GER in the past.
The main problem is, as was pointed out already, the fight is a stalemate if Pucci never attacks. GER alone isn't fast enough to attack MiH. He could use RtZ, but it's unclear how much control Giorno has in that regard. He clearly can use it manually, but we're not sure to what extent. It's likely the only way he could use it in this fight would be its auto-protection against Pucci's attacks, but if Pucci never attacks, the fight is a stalemate.
Pucci doesn't have any means to put down GER, either. Direct attacks would work against him, and even if he could alter fate (which he can't do freely) GER isn't affected by that. So it's a stalemate unless Pucci attacks, whereupon it would then be a GER victory.
Unfunnyvanlentine wrote: That’s actually a really good question. I assume after seeing johny preform spin Kars would also be able to do it.
He could probably get close, but the infinite rotation is something only Johnny can do. And even then, I'm not sure Ultimate Kars could avoid Tusk ACT 4.
Naruichiplayz6 wrote:
LT actually came from D4C's ability: For multiple dimensions to exist. It's very hard on how misfortune redirection applies on LT when it came from another stand.
Love Train comes from the corpse. Without the corpse, Valentine can't use it. So it's not exactly coming from Valentine.
Naruichiplayz6 wrote:
When he mean't zero it mean't start. Infinity came from zero, you know.
Technically no, it doesn't. Infinity is supposed to mean it has no start or end. It's hard to say where Love Train comes from.
Mystic Mania wrote: Also, I'm extremely sorry if I come across as rude at all. I'm not meaning to sound that way, but I still apologize regardless.
Nah man don't worry about it, you sounded fine. You clearly remember a lot more about parts 1 and 2 than I do so I'll trust you in this one.
LegacyOfPanther wrote: Jesus Christ, this entire thread is a shitshow. GER can obviously beat TWOH if his abilities were actually represented correctly in the game. It's not even as bad as when Jotaro beat DIO in Part 3 if all DIO had to do was Space Ripper Stingy Eyes him in stopped time, because at least that was explained by saying DIO had Jonathan's body and whatnot which limited his powers. GER didn't even get that right.
TWOH needs to connect it's fist with something PHYSICAL to activate it's abilities, like almost a quarter of the stands in this series. He can't make himself immune to shit like time abilities, otherwise why wouldn't he just make himself immune in general. Infinite stamina is an option, but stamina ≠ length of timestop, only how many times you can spam it continuously. If that wasn't the case, why was DIO and even Jotaro in Part 4 always using the maximum amount of seconds to be in stopped time, without and sign of being tired at all. DIO obviously sleeps, as even the PIllar Men did so. Even with this, time stop has a rather obvious cooldown between uses that is by no means mentioned that DIO overcamed when he ascended.
Meanwhile, GER can activate his abilitiy without even being in The World Over Canon's (I agree with that nickname) range. No, DIO can't punch his way to GER. No, DIO can't run away and think of a plan to attack Giorno with. No, DIo doesn't win "Because he so op omg he can oneshot everything". This got to be the wors logic I've ever seen. This was a writer's mistake of not understanding the character's actual power, not some bullshit some of you are trying to make up. People don't do this for when the Punisher survived Ghost Rider's Penance Stare just because "I regret nothing" even though that's not how the ability works, why does this get a pass.
P.S.: To the people who are replying with "DIO beat GER in the game so no he can't win at all", thanks for adding literally nothing to the conversation. You couldn't even read the title correctly.
Eyes of Heaven is written like shit and contradicts canon, but there will always be people who say "no dio just ez claps evryon" and add nothing of significance to the debate.
DarkDownt wrote:
I always said Part 5 was everything part 3 was but 200% better. Part 3 is still ok though.
That's funny I've always described Part 5 the exact same way.
Creeperman129 wrote: I guess?
But again, we don't have much to go off of and there's still an emphasis on souls, so it isn't a major stretch to make
It's also not enough of a connection to assume consistency. The only thing we know for sure is that Requiem Stand are born from the arrow.
Shit, we're still unable to agree about whether it requires a specific arrow or if any arrow will do.
Mystic Mania wrote: Part 2 literally has a feat of Joseph and Caesar dodging a laser made of light. That makes Kars the second fastest villain here, behind Pucci, if you don't buy FTL JoJo.
Buying FTL JoJo just makes him much faster.
Shit, really? I don't remember that at all.
ハモンパワー wrote: yes he can
first, you have to know what is time stop and time skip
time skip:1 2 3 7
time stop:1 2 3 *time stop* 3 4 5 6 7
and if it looks like this:1 2 *skip* 7 then yes
You have simplified and easily explained what has taken many of us decades to fully understand. Well played.
Mystic Mania wrote: Really, the JoFoe BR ends in a stalemate. Kars' durability is way too high for Dio, DIO, or Diovolo to do anything against, Kira and Valentine could technically kill him with their base abilites, but because of their immensely short range, and his huge speed advantage over both, they'll die before they can fully take the chance. He could kill Pucci if he were to desummon Made In Heaven, but Pucci should be able to react to that, even in his base reaction speed. ( Unless he were caught off guard. ) But, Pucci while using MIH? Kars simply can't touch him. But due to Kars' regen and durability, Pucci can't actually kill him either.
Kars could still be killed though, if you destroy his brain faster than he can react, which is something Made in Heaven is capable of if it gets fast enough.
And unless I'm forgetting something Kars isn't all that fast, is he? I mean he keeps up with Joseph in the plane but that's the fastest I remember him going.
Mystic Mania wrote: 1. Kars blitzes even without DIO upscaling, so there's that.
2. Kars has far better range, mobility, and adaptability than Valentine.
3. Kars has the ability to sense and feel the air and heat pressure around him, so even if he can't see Stands, he can detect them automatically.
Mate explain to me how Kars could break through Love Train?
Unfunnyvanlentine wrote:
I completely agree with this. Personally I would put part 8s potential main villain at 2 but it may be too early to judge
You're probably right. The only reason I didn't include Wonder of U in the list was that his big fight isn't finished yet and we don't know it's limitations, if it has any.
Mystic Mania wrote: No offense but your list is basically the same as saying the JoJo list is:
"Jonathan, Joseph, Jolyne, Josuke, Gappy, Jotaro, Johnny, Giorno". You're making assumptions about certain stats that just aren't true ( such as Part 4 being faster than Part 1. ) Like, I agree with certain things you said, such as DIO not breaking Love Train, not catching up to MIH, and just not having the AP to kill Kars, but other things such as Valentine being able to pull Kars into another dimension before Kars can kill him just doesn't have anything solid backing it up.
Also, I don't feel you really backed up why the Hanged Man feat isn't lightspeed. You just said it wasn't, but why?
Well I explicitly said that Valentine would be lower on the list without Love Train, but with Love Train, how is Kars going to stop him? He can't even touch him.
I try to avoid assumptions whenever possible, but I'll include ones that I think are logical. As far as I remember, the fastest we ever see a character in parts 1 and 2 move is when they dodge Space Ripper Stingy Eyes, but we don't have any scaling to say how fast the Stingy Eyes are. Since there are no other moments in parts 1 or 2 indicate characters going above peak human speed, it's safe to assume they're rather slow compared to later character speeds.
Comparatively, characters in the later parts scale much higher. Crazy Diamond can catch bullets and outspeed Killer Queen without much difficulty, Killer Queen can outspeed Echoes ACT 3, and Echoes ACT 3 can still move fast enough to distort the wind around it (much faster than any human). I try to avoid relying on Stand stats because they're mostly inconsistent horseshit. In general, throughout the entire series, the large majority of Stands outspeed humans by quite a margin.
I've already explained the Hanged Man, but I guess I'll do it again: The Hanged Man is confirmed lightspeed. Polnareff is consistently unable to equal its speed, until he realizes he can intercept Hanged Man as long as he knows its trajectory. Polnareff explicitly states that he cannot hit something moving as fast as Hanged Man without knowing where it will go. So right away, we confirm that Silver Chariot can't even reach lightspeed, much less exceed it. However, Silver Chariot is still a very precise Stand, so as long as he knows where Hanged Man is going and when he's going to move there, he can time his hit just right and slice him.
That's why I made the baseball comparison earlier. You can hit a baseball moving at 100mph without moving the bat at 100mph, as long as you know where the ball is going and when the pitcher throws it. The same is true of Silver Chariot, and we know it because Polnareff specifically says so. If Silver Chariot could outspeed Hanged Man, there would've been no point in Kakyoin's coin trick. The coin was necessary specifically because Silver Chariot isn't lightspeed.
Feel free to criticize any points I've made. It's been a hot minute since I've read parts 1 and 2 so it's possible I've forgotten something.
Creeperman129 wrote: There is though
Chariot Requiem swaps souls
GER took Diavolo's soul and made it infinitely repeat deaths
Requiems affect the soul, that's the baseline we have.
That's kind of a stretch, mate. That's like saying The World stops souls or Cream erases souls. You're not entirely wrong, but that's a massive oversimplification of what those Stands actually do. I mean, no where in GER's ability description does it reference souls. It's ability is to return actions or will to zero.