What would you think about the claims of Tusk ACT 4 besting GER and even BTD (claimed from an interaction in ASB)?
Also the thing I said about TW adding a cause was to make it comparable to GER, with that explanation it'd make sense that GER defeats time-stop.
It's kinda hard to idenfiticate it well since the main desired effect is KC punching through GER, yet the cause of that derivates from the effect of skipped time. In a sense it feels as if KC would be manipulated by time instead (the lack of possibility of avoiding a predicted fate for example).
It's said it doesn't exist "inside this world" though, what if GER may adapt to the rules of causality of that other world? GER isn't said to be limited to a specific type of causality (though to be fair this is too NLF I guess).
Now I see what you've meant all this time now, you say it's actually irrelevant whether it got started before or after skipped-time ended since the effect would be removed anyways since GER works over a concept instead of time.
KC removes the cause and leaves the effect with only the user knowing what was the original cause when it skips time... in a sense TW works in a similar way (you may say it introduce a cause to provoke an effect, once again, only the user knows what was the generated cause) but GER does the opposite (removes the effect before the cause in an automatic way).
Is that the reason why you consider Go Beyond to be stronger? Cause supposedly there's no cause to go back since that attack is made of nothing itself? Hm, I can dig that (still I find it really hard for it to kill Giorno, unless Tooru is highly sturdier than a normal human... dunno).
Personally I agree on a sense, in Jojo, fate >>>>>>>>>>>> everything else. It's even as it was implied in part 5, fate may be "bypassed" but that may just be a higher order of fate instead, including things like GER, KC, Go Beyond and anything else that seems to defy it.
I mean, the person with the exact tool that could challenge Pucci never crosses in his way, despite Pucci being fated to meet the other children of DIO. It can be said that MiH was the perfect counter for GER, even if you consider the most busted interpretations as canon, since it had no will to harm Giorno, just to leave him trapped into the destiny he was already going to have. Then no matter if Giorno was destined to meet Pucci and kill him he'd have already won since the new universe would've been complete.
But even if he were to've known about Pucci before the universal reset he had no way to challenge Pucci once time was resetted since he had to follow his destiny and Pucci had made no ill willed action towards him.
"This world "disappears" when the ability ends.
Now, how does GER reset something that has already disappeared?"
GER has already committed the impossible of reversing time that had already been erased (the 9 and some seconds before time-skip would end), why it should be that hard for GER to reset the entire 10 seconds? There's barely any difference at all, there'd be at least one small, insignificant instant in normal time before his punch reaches his face, I say GER got activated at that very exact moment.
1) actions can be executed in skipped time anyways though, Polnareff stabbed SC during skipped time, Narancia and Trish were killed/harmed during skipped time as well. Diavolo cleaned that room as well.
2) I guess we agree on that one, GER has not infinite speed
3) I'd say Diavolo's actions included the results of Epitaph's predictions, not just the skipped time. the prediciton was never going to happen into skipped time.
4) I agree, time in Jojo works in a relative way, that's the very reason MiH was able to reset tne entire universe (not just Earth as the stupid JORGE JOESTAR novel implies).
I also agree than Tusk trascends time, after all it moved in stopped time.
What? Does it have or doesn't it has infinite speed for you? make up your mind! Then you mention immesurable speed as a way to defeat GER, isn't that the exact thing MiH has?
I don't really thinkg SP:TW is stronger than GER though, I only think it may have a slim chance of bypassing it, since Araki has been really contradictory about which is the strongest stand (Since whether GER got triggered after or before the very instant Diavolo stops skipping time won't change anything regarding King Crimson's abilities against GER, yet it'd be a huge difference outside it.) . Thus I give it a pass. It just bugger me when people says that GER 100% got activated inside skipped time when it happened at such a crucial moment that may count as the very instant Diavolo was going to get time back to normal... there's still a better explanation about what could've happened here (It basically says since you can preemptively plan to use a stand during skipped time like Bucciaratti did, GER could've perfectly done the same).
Even myself don't considerate that as a fact (even before part 5): a stand battle is hardly ever one of sheer strength. Jotaro couldn't beat SHA for example and was powerless against the BTD loop, no matter how strong Araki said his stand was. yet whenever GER comes into the discussion supposedly there's no way to win: it's permanent, active all the time, conscious about everything and able to reset anything Giorno won't like.
I know it may seem I'm trying a bit too hard to argue against GER... guess the thing I hate the most about that stand is that it's argued you can't outsmart the concept since it ends up being a NLF. If it were by me GER would be adaptative (not the same abilities against every enemy) yet temporal (once it's used -> back to GE till it's stabbed again). I may be right on these, or entirely wrong, yet there are my two cents about that.
And GER conveniently just gets activated at the very moment Diavolo has to go back to normal time... that's why I don't consider the situation comparable to one with stopped time at all. GER rewinds actions before their consecuences are done apparently, if it allowed Diavolo to go so far in skipped time, you can deal far worse damage in stopped time, if Giorno and GER are killed (let's say they get beheaded) in stopped time there's no going back there.
Go Beyond a 4th type acausality? That's a bit too much, I don't consider it trascend time for example since that was never demonstrated. We just don't know whether it'd still work in stopped/skipped time.
Also you convenientelly skipped the healing vs damage part: may it resist RtZ? Good! It still won't kill neither Giorno nor GER. GER healed both a hole in the chest and a broken skull in no time, an amount of damage arguably comparable to that dealt from Go Beyond to Tooru. That's not killing GER at all. Specially when it can barely be aimed (being extremely difficult to get, let's say a headshot to instakill Giorno).
A nickname? Those were the very words of the narrator, not from a character in the story. It comes from outside of the inner narrative of the story. Also you may say artbooks>>>>manga but that's really questionable when the main product is the manga and it will contradict the artbook with its descriptions. As I said before this is not maths or physics: the strongest stand will be Echoes ACT 1 if Araki tomorrow decides to say so. In the same vein, his answers had been quite contradictory over time.
And the reason I don't consider GER's ability that effective is around the blood droplets, wht didn't GER got triggered right there?... the ill will and the action were all present there! what? If you afflict Giorno in some way without damaging him too much it won't act? That's a bit too cheap for me.
Logic? End point? The end point was Giorno dying in normal time! not Diavolo trying to punch him in skipped time, he had to let go of it to punch Giorno: it was a must!
Yeah, that's why I consider stats as something a bit iffy, Whitesnake had a "D" in speed but due to its illusion ability, not the speed of the stand itself. Even Kiss should be stronger than SP:TW if we'd go by pure stats. That's why even in my comment I was doubtful. On the other hand KC may be weaker, or may be in the same range (or even slightly higher, Crazy Diamond is said to be slightly stronger than Star Platinum albeit slower for example, even in the very same JOJO-A-GOGO (this isn't nuclear physics after all XD, Araki has been (and probably will be) commiting mistakes like this lots of times)).
I'd say that given that JOJOVELLER is the last iteration of Araki's official word (way after part 6 and any other interview talking about these stands) it may be true that GER is indeed officially the strongest.
"In terms of speed, Its MIH, in terms of strength its Act 4, In terms of ability its GER, and in terms of physical combat its SP."
Hmm, but Star Platinum and King Crimson have both A in speed and strength. Thus they'd not be that far away... on the other hand GER completely blitzed and overpowered King Crimson... although sometimes it's hard to know whether to pinpoint stats towards stands phyisical attributes or their esoteric abilities.
@Gigigifiigigig There's no clear indication at all to be honest, I'd argue the anime adds the "time-skip activation/deactivation" right at the same moment Diavolo was going to punch Giorno (alas, in the anime Diavolo steps over GER's scorpions and given how GE works he'd have died right away, something that didn't happen in the manga, thus I won't take the anime into account). The point is that it's the same exact moment.
I don't give that much care to JOJOVELLER or JOJO-A-GOGO, Araki has contradicted himself several times regarding which one is the strongest stand. This will be kind of a meta comment, but several times authors contradict content of a databook some time later(Araki himself contradicts JOJO-A-GOGO with the infamous comment of part 6, and even in an interview he calls MiH "The strongest power he ever came up with", in 2008) given that JOJOVELLER is newer than all those I can give it that benefit at least, yet I tend to regard them as less important than the things shown in the manga.
But it's actually really funny that you consider Go Beyond as something stronger than GER... why? cause these attacks "don't exist"? skipped time ends up becoming time that never existed as well yet it was reverted. I can't get the idea of GER being stronger than The World or King Crimson but weaker than Go Beyond, if you know, GER can revert everything to zero.
Heck, in part 5 GER healed GIorno's wounds so fast Diavolo couldn't even see it and not even two shots killed Tooru. Even if they hit Giorno and GER would be unable to revert the wounds it should be perfectly able to heal him in a blink.
"but his ability is unrivaled because his stand transcends 4-D.¨
I even doubt this by a lot, GER only started RtZ at the very same moment Diavolo had to disable time-skip since he couldn't harm Giorno or GER during skipped time: he can't interact with the world when he skips time. It even got droplets of blood over its eyes without doing anything till that moment.
Thus I feel that may not be that extraordinary... because it's highly probable than GER just activated at the very exact moment time went back to normal once again. I would've truly believed that if it'd gone active at the very moment Diavolo threw his blood over its eyes.
Given that, plus Diavolo's prediction confirming that if GER gets pierced through with a punch it should die, and that Araki still said stopped time was the strongest, most invincible ability ever even during part 6, I truly believe GER wouldn't have any way to defend against a lethal attack in stopped time. Sure, King Crimson would never be able to best GER, but its powers just aren't the same.
In fewer words, I think GER's RtZ activation (not it's power itself) doesn't trascend time.
@LAZYCRAZYGAMER
Yeah, exactly that, not saying that GER would neccesary lose against MiH or any other stand since that's too speculative, but since it's a fully complete Requiem it'd be another kind of thing, fundamentally different from a stand in the same way a vampire or a hamon/spin user is, yet you wouldn't use stand stats to measure such things.
I guess the point Araki wanted to make in some way is that GER doesn't receive stats for the same reason vampiric abilities like Dio's freezing and the modes from the Pillar Men don't. It doesn't qualify in the same category, nonetheless all of these (stands, vampires and GER) have several abilities that are of the same type (super strength, regeneration, etc) but each one of them may have something the other can't get (for example, the abilities from the Mask aren't that wide compared to stands but with it someone can revive the dead (something no stand can do according to Jotaro) and even become the ULF).
It's kind of a general law of fiction at this point, the character that will take the most damage will be the one who can regenerate, the same reason the only character that gets dismembered all the time in Dragon Ball is Piccolo. Other people are also punched by SP yet none of them've ever got as damaged as DIO was. Remember than the flick of a stone from GER destroyed an entire tower... I don't think Diavolo's body is sturdier than concrete.
On another hand, regarding the "uncomparable" part, I just think GER doesn't work in the same way yet is limited somehow. It'd be like comparing Dr Strange, Batman and Ironman's technological prowess in a direct way: Ironman would probably surpass Batman since that's his greatest asset and Dr. Strange would be left on the floor... however Strange would be perfectly able to mop the floor with both of them and is capable to do a lot of things they can do and even more but with magic instead of tech. Thus he's uncomparable to them, I feel GER's stats may be going around that instead of the "beyond infinities" interpretation that some people loves to give to it.
I'd rather give a different answer: of course that no one wants a stand that opposes oneself(Cheap Trick, Superfly, etc)... from the practical and useful ones I'd say Boy II Man: despite being one of the stands with the highest hypothetical potential (you can stack probably lots of stands together) it's way too risky going against a stand user trying to trick them into playing: if they suspect something they might use theirs on you and things would be over in an instant.
@VegetaFan756 "Oh, and just because his stats say "infinite" doesn't mean it's null. GER is large building level (at least), and does not have the strength required to launch Kars 30km+ into the air."
I think the same, GER stats are said to be uncomparable to other stands, thus some people just take it as them being immensely bigger than any other stand's stats (quite a problem when some of them have infinite speed or range).
However that may be false: GER may just work in quite the different sense than a normal stand albeit still in a somehow limited way, just like Asta's powers from Black Clover, he uses anti-magic instead of normal magic and thus he's incomparable to any other mage in the world, yet he's not instantly 1000 times stronger than all of them combined.
In fewer words GER is the greatest NLF (No limits fallacy) I've ever seen on any series to the point I just take it as a meme to this moment.
@Aifroblox1 in such case Kars would still exist albeit in another dimension.
I know, was just satirizing the way GER wankers portray it.