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  • Nabukun
    Nabukun closed this thread because:
    Thread cultivates toxic behavior.
    22:42, April 14, 2019

    Yes, xForts brought that up once in a video but I thought it would be great to let everyone bring their minds into it.

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    • Well eh, technically, nah.

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    • Considering he can be held responcible of Dio accquiring his Stand, Yoshikage's murders after acquiring his Stand and other mass murders the only person in the series that might deserve it more than him is Kars.

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    • Mr. Waddle Dee wrote:
      Considering he can be held responcible of Dio accquiring his Stand, Yoshikage's murders after acquiring his Stand and other mass murders the only person in the series that might deserve it more than him is Kars.

      or dio. 

      its not how many he killed (although he killed A LOT of people, albeit mostly indirectly, like one of his underlings or allies doing it), its WHO he killed

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    • thought i think he should but kira as a person is worst 

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    • I wouldn't say so.

      I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment, after all you can only do so much wrong in one human life.

      On the other hand there are other people both IRL and in jojo that would deserve it more.

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    • ~Octopai~ wrote:
      I wouldn't say so.

      I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment, after all you can only do so much wrong in one human life.

      On the other hand there are other people both IRL and in jojo that would deserve it more.

      oh.

      what if your entire EXISTENCE is a wrong? diavolos is an abomonation.

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      ~Octopai~ wrote:
      I wouldn't say so.

      I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment, after all you can only do so much wrong in one human life.

      On the other hand there are other people both IRL and in jojo that would deserve it more.

      oh.

      what if your entire EXISTENCE is a wrong? diavolos is an abomonation.

      The thing is, that's not the case. How could you or anyone deem diavolo's existence a wrong? My point before still holds - you can only do so much evil in one life and personally, I don't think diavolo had done anything bad enough to deserve eternal punishment.

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    • ~Octopai~ wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      ~Octopai~ wrote:
      I wouldn't say so.

      I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment, after all you can only do so much wrong in one human life.

      On the other hand there are other people both IRL and in jojo that would deserve it more.

      oh.

      what if your entire EXISTENCE is a wrong? diavolos is an abomonation.

      The thing is, that's not the case. How could you or anyone deem diavolo's existence a wrong? My point before still holds - you can only do so much evil in one life and personally, I don't think diavolo had done anything bad enough to deserve eternal punishment.

      You don't think murder deserves Hell? SMH

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    • Superarc1 wrote:
      ~Octopai~ wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      ~Octopai~ wrote:
      I wouldn't say so.

      I don't believe anyone deserves eternal punishment, after all you can only do so much wrong in one human life.

      On the other hand there are other people both IRL and in jojo that would deserve it more.

      oh.

      what if your entire EXISTENCE is a wrong? diavolos is an abomonation.

      The thing is, that's not the case. How could you or anyone deem diavolo's existence a wrong? My point before still holds - you can only do so much evil in one life and personally, I don't think diavolo had done anything bad enough to deserve eternal punishment.
      You don't think murder deserves Hell? SMH

      I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say, no one deserves E T E R N A L punishment, absolutely no one does. Like I said there is only so much wrong you can do in one life. Nothing that you could do deserves punishment that lasts forever. Keep in mind that this is many, many more times then it would take to "repay" what he did and to learn his lesson.

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    • Hell, the damage's done already.

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    • So uh...seem I made a long and debated discussion. Bully to me!

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    • MadameSilent wrote:
      So uh...seem I made a long and debated discussion. Bully to me!

      thats perfectly fine!

      it means your disscussion was a versitile and intresting topic!

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    • Even if he had a normal death he would of still gone to hell so it doesn't make a difference.

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    • DivineRetribution wrote:
      Even if he had a normal death he would of still gone to hell so it doesn't make a difference.

      eh. I think he might have gotten kiras fate.

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    • To my PoV, it's not the evil he has done. Possibly, it was probably the evil he possibly could've made if he got his way. Giorno was pissed anyway; Stands sort of reflect the user's nature, and GER can act by themself.

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    • To be fair, he kinda brought it upon himself. Diavolo really instigated the entirety of his downfall. If he hadn't tried to kill Trish, it's unlikely any of that would have gone down. Considering the fact that Polnareff prob would have seen Giorno and co as Passione minions rather than potential allies.

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    • I mean, almost every jojo villain deserves that fate

      also, I think he deserved it.

      why? he found the arrows and gave one to enbaya, and the rest is history

      dio got involved in stands, and so much carnage was a result

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      I mean, almost every jojo villain deserves that fate

      also, I think he deserved it.

      why? he found the arrows and gave one to enbaya, and the rest is history

      dio got involved in stands, and so much carnage was a result

      I've said it before and I'll say it again - Diavolo did not commit an "infinite" crime, so in turn he does not - and will not ever deserve an "infinite" punishment. (which would be the effect of GER) I'm not saying Diavolo deserved no punishment but this is WAY too harsh, it is the same with the ramifacations of hell in christianity, it just doesn't make sense and would be an injustice if it were to occur.

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    • Compelling comeback, Octopai! Anyways, I'd think that Diavolo would better be in hell rather than an infinite punishment, it's honestly the same. 

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    • Diavolo deserved better. Sure, he's a horrible person, but no one really deserves that. Infinity punishments don't make sense because the purpose of punishments is to both repay for crimes and to learn a lesson, however, infinite punishments can accomplish neither of these.

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    • Well, the death was coming anyways, he's the type of person who wouldn't surrender so either Giorno have to kill him or he's going to kill himself.

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    • MadameSilent wrote: Well, the death was coming anyways, he's the type of person who wouldn't surrender so either Giorno have to kill him or he's going to kill himself.

      No, he deserved to die, just that he didn't deserve to die infinite times. Although God knows what happened to him after MiH did his thing.

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    • In my opinion he deserved to die as many times as the victims he or his actions caused, making him experience the suffering he caused...

      Eternal punishment makes no sense to me, as one could reach the point of "not feeling/thinking" eventually... (Kars is a decent example) 

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    • Kakorat wrote:

      MadameSilent wrote: Well, the death was coming anyways, he's the type of person who wouldn't surrender so either Giorno have to kill him or he's going to kill himself.

      No, he deserved to die, just that he didn't deserve to die infinite times. Although God knows what happened to him after MiH did his thing.

      maybe he died as fast as time was moving along?

      oh sweet lord

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    • TKMoon wrote:
      In my opinion he deserved to die as many times as the victims he or his actions caused, making him experience the suffering he caused...

      Eternal punishment makes no sense to me, as one could reach the point of "not feeling/thinking" eventually... (Kars is a decent example) 

      But GER can reset that, so everytime he dies it's like the first time. It's actually unclear what did he reset, does he resets his perception as well? Does Diavolo knows he already died n times or does he dies every time without even knowing it just happened?

      But yhea, i agree, eternal punishment doesn't make sense since you can't have committed eternal "wrongs". Btw how does this work actually? Since it's not like GER can stay there for eternity just to reapply the "reset", did he like....stacked resets upon each other? Did he resetted Diavolo's death and then resetted his own reset creating a reset cycle? Or is it another one of those GER cases: "it just works"?

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    • If you think about it, Diavolo stole the arrows from the excavation site and then gave 5 to Enya. This means that he is responsible for DIO acquiring a stand, and all the women he killed for blood, as well as placing Holly Joestar and Josuke Higashikata into fevers, which almost killed them. This means that Diavolo indirectly killed/almost killed many, many people from part 3 and 4.

      Speaking of part 4, Keicho Nijimura got his arrow somehow from Enya and shot a bunch of people all around Morioh, who killed many people, including himself. Kira as well. When his father found the arrow and brought it all the way back to Morioh, he was shot and obtained Killer Queen. He killed many, many, many innocent people. This also means that Diavolo indirectly killed the innocent people Kira killed in part 4.

      And let's not forget he did directly and indirectly kill multiple people in part 5. He sent Carne on a suicide mission, which didn't even succeed but did result in Carne's death. All of the people that were killed by Black Sabbath in the first trial, as well as bystanders outside of the trial, was because Diavolo approved and set up the trial. He killed Abbachio before he could find Diavolo's identity. He sent Oasis and Green Day after the group, resulting in Buccelati's death, as well as many of the people in the area. Diavolo killed Narancia without a word, in a painful way. So yeah, he killed a bunch from part 5 alone.

      So if you ask me, I feel like he definitely deserves to experience death for many years before he can truly die, since his actions resulted in countless deaths spread across parts 3, 4, and 5.

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    • 'There are two major problems I still see here. While Diavolo was a bad guy, he doesn't deserve an infinite punishment, which is what GER's death zero was. (I don't think there is any way to argue against this) Keep in mind the question here is "Did Diavolo deserve the infinite death loop?" and NOT "'Did Diavolo deserve any punishment whatsoever?". Considering this I think the answer can only be no, because regardless of what Diavolo did in his natural human life, his crimes can not considered "infinite" by any measurement, and in turn, an "infinite punshiment" (which is what the death loop is) can not be considered just. The second major problem I see here is you giving Diavolo the responsibility for every single problem caused by Diavolo selling Enya the arrows. This is ridiculous considering that in any other scenario a typical person would not levy the blame onto the person in Diavolo's position. Here's a topical example: Would you blame a gun store for selling a firearm to a terrorist when they have no idea what they would do with said firearm?

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    • seriously.

      imagine what happened during MIH

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      seriously.

      imagine what happened during MIH

      For Diavolo? I doubt anything happened. First, it seems that the loop is in it's own disconnected world, second GER's zeroing power probably negated any effects of MiH that would interfere, and third even if MiH could effect the loop somehow, it probably would only "leave it behind", which while being vague I don't think this means the loop will end somehow. Finally, it doesn't make sense for the loop to end from a writing point of view, it's similar to the Kars situation - he's just going to be left in the loop forever because that was Araki's original intent.

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    • ~Octopai~ wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      seriously.

      imagine what happened during MIH

      For Diavolo? I doubt anything happened. First, it seems that the loop is in it's own disconnected world, second GER's zeroing power probably negated any effects of MiH that would interfere, and third even if MiH could effect the loop somehow, it probably would only "leave it behind", which while being vague I don't think this means the loop will end somehow. Finally, it doesn't make sense for the loop to end from a writing point of view, it's similar to the Kars situation - he's just going to be left in the loop forever because that was Araki's original intent.

      does this mean that GER>MIH?

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    • Thehonestone wrote:
      ~Octopai~ wrote:
      Thehonestone wrote:
      seriously.

      imagine what happened during MIH

      For Diavolo? I doubt anything happened. First, it seems that the loop is in it's own disconnected world, second GER's zeroing power probably negated any effects of MiH that would interfere, and third even if MiH could effect the loop somehow, it probably would only "leave it behind", which while being vague I don't think this means the loop will end somehow. Finally, it doesn't make sense for the loop to end from a writing point of view, it's similar to the Kars situation - he's just going to be left in the loop forever because that was Araki's original intent.
      does this mean that GER>MIH?

      Obviously GER is stronger than MIH, even KC is superior.

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    • eh

      I guess I have nothing to add to the conversation

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    • Chain of events comng up:

      Diavolo gave Enya the arrows -> Enya stabs Dio giving him a stand -> Dio stabbed Pucci -> Entire part 6 -> Universe ended.


      So technically, Diavolo is indirectly responsible for every part after part 3, but he is also responsible for giving us the SBR universe, so couldn't argue with him creating SBR.

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    • Wrong board, you could be spoiling anime watchers.

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    • From a technicaly point-of-view, Diavolo did deserve the GER Death Loop. Cause, really, he DID commit an infinite crime.

      How "long" of a crime is murder? It depends on the kind of world you live in.

      If you live in a world with reincarnation, it's worth the experience of a single death. Cause the person who was murdered had to experience 1 death and then gets to reincarnate.

      But in a world without reincarnation, it would have to be worth 1 permament death. Cause the person who was murdered is dead and gone forever. So, in order to be equal, the perpetrator would also have to be dead and gone forever. Otherwise the perpetrator isn't getting a sentence equal to the crime. The victim is gone for all of eternity, so the perpetrator should be gone for all of eternity as well. That is justice. A punishment that matches the crime.

      Unfortunately, this is impossible for Diavolo. Because Diavolo murdered more than one person. Which means that he would have to be dead and gone forever more than one time. Which is an oxymoron. You can only be dead and gone forever once. Otherwise it wasn't forever. This means it's impossible to punish Diavolo fittingly.

      Unless you use a loophole like GER.

      If we're being technical, eternal death is eternal. So no amount of pain, no matter how vast, can equal it. Cause it's eternal.

      GER never actually kills Diavolo for good. It just makes him experience death over and over again. So GER never actually gives Diavolo the eternal deaths he deserves. However, since Diavolo can't actually have the multiple eternities of deaths that he deserves, GER is the next best thing.

      Since, because he is never dead for good, he is actually receiving a lighter punishment than his crimes warrant. But since it goes on forever, I don't think anyone is going to complain about him getting off lightly.

      If we're using pure logic without sentamentality, than the answer to this question is yes. Diavolo deserves his fate. Because he killed multiple people off for good, but he can't be killed off for good multiple times. So instead he experiences pain forever. Cause the worser punishment he deserves is impossible.

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    • How long is this discussion going to last.

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    • No one deserves eternal punishment.

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    • Lvxuria wrote:
      No one deserves eternal punishment.

      Then why in za warudo does Christian's hell is forever. Heck, even Jesus said eternal death in hell.

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    • Vizorus69 wrote:

      Lvxuria wrote:
      No one deserves eternal punishment.

      Then why in za warudo does Christian's hell is forever. Heck, even Jesus said eternal death in hell.

      For the sake of this wiki, let's not get into religion unless it pertains to Jojo. Prevents many bad things from happening.

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    • Kakorat wrote:

      Vizorus69 wrote:

      Lvxuria wrote:
      No one deserves eternal punishment.

      Then why in za warudo does Christian's hell is forever. Heck, even Jesus said eternal death in hell.

      For the sake of this wiki, let's not get into religion unless it pertains to Jojo. Prevents many bad things from happening.

      But Jesus is in JoJo. Part 7.

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    • The two forbidden topics are religion and politics. Those topics are sure to lead to flame wars. I agree with Kakorat. Let's NOT go into religion PLZ.

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    • Agreed

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    • HouseBlack wrote:
      From a technicaly point-of-view, Diavolo did deserve the GER Death Loop. Cause, really, he DID commit an infinite crime.

      How "long" of a crime is murder? It depends on the kind of world you live in.

      If you live in a world with reincarnation, it's worth the experience of a single death. Cause the person who was murdered had to experience 1 death and then gets to reincarnate.

      But in a world without reincarnation, it would have to be worth 1 permament death. Cause the person who was murdered is dead and gone forever. So, in order to be equal, the perpetrator would also have to be dead and gone forever. Otherwise the perpetrator isn't getting a sentence equal to the crime. The victim is gone for all of eternity, so the perpetrator should be gone for all of eternity as well. That is justice. A punishment that matches the crime.

      Unfortunately, this is impossible for Diavolo. Because Diavolo murdered more than one person. Which means that he would have to be dead and gone forever more than one time. Which is an oxymoron. You can only be dead and gone forever once. Otherwise it wasn't forever. This means it's impossible to punish Diavolo fittingly.

      Unless you use a loophole like GER.

      If we're being technical, eternal death is eternal. So no amount of pain, no matter how vast, can equal it. Cause it's eternal.

      GER never actually kills Diavolo for good. It just makes him experience death over and over again. So GER never actually gives Diavolo the eternal deaths he deserves. However, since Diavolo can't actually have the multiple eternities of deaths that he deserves, GER is the next best thing.

      Since, because he is never dead for good, he is actually receiving a lighter punishment than his crimes warrant. But since it goes on forever, I don't think anyone is going to complain about him getting off lightly.

      If we're using pure logic without sentamentality, than the answer to this question is yes. Diavolo deserves his fate. Because he killed multiple people off for good, but he can't be killed off for good multiple times. So instead he experiences pain forever. Cause the worser punishment he deserves is impossible.


      Man, it's been a while.

      Okay, first off I like this argument - has some really valid points, but I still disagree based on a few things. First off, while death may be permanent life definetly is not. Diavolo did not cause death, he ended life - and while that statement seems paradoxical in nature, I think the important thing here is what is stressed, that being life is not eternal. The people Diavolo killed, no matter how many, and no matter how young were going to die at some point. (Now we could get into immortality arguments, but I think at this point in the jojo continuity and considering the location of the people he killed it would be extremely unlikely immortality could occur) Now this does not absolve Diavolo of his crimes, but considering that he essentially quickened a natural process (albeit in a violent fashion) he doesn't deserve eternal punishment. If we say the natural life of a person is on average 80 years old and normalize the age of those he killed to be 20, and we say he killed ~100 people that would amount to 6,000 collective years of life lost. Now this number is definetly nothing to scoff at but comparing this to eternity it is merely a drop in the bucket, even more so if we consider all the overestimation. Even if we are to go into indirect kills at the greatest estimations being perhaps in the hundreds of thousands of years this is nothing compared to eternity, all of time. The important thing to remember with this is that life is what Diavolo was ending, something that would end regardless. For my second point I'd like to first make clear that I'm not the most keen on the after life in jojo, but from my standpoint there seems to be three different ends for people, first is heaven or something close to it as we see the spirits of characters dying going off to some other realm multiple times, the second being some sort of purgatory/ghost existense - like Diavolo or DMQ's Kira, and then ceasing to exist. My point here is that death isn't nearly as bad as Diavolo's punishment, because for most people it seems that they ascend into the next realm, free of the pain and hardship of life (of course we've never really seen this beyond realm but from the looks of it I doubt it's something horrible) and then there are ghosts who remain until their business is finished. Neither of these ends predispose someone to the terror and pain of death more than once so to say that Diavolo deserves to experience INFINITE deaths (and then saying this is somehow a lighter sentence than just straight up dying) I think is quite sadistic. Something I think the thing people shrug off is the ETERNAL nature of Diavolo's punishment, and not only eternal punishment ETERNAL PAIN AND TERROR just after a few deaths we can see Diavolo cowering from a little girl, he's already broken - and to say that he should have to face that FAR after the deaths he caused were atoned for many times over is imprudent and most definetly does not reflect true justice, or a fair punishment equal to the crime.


      If we're using pure logic here and not sentimentality then I think the best conclusion is that murder, a hanis crime in its own right does not incur the punishment of torture that will never end. Once again I'd like to reiterate Diavolo's punishment is far too harsh on the grounds that it is going far beyond the bounds of what he did, he did not set in motion something that wouldn't have happened otherwise, people die regardless of how it occurs. Now of course I must say, Diavolo did deserve a punishment, that much I agree, but I think this punishment in particular is akin to drawing and quartering someone for stealing a lolipop. 

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    • Vizorus69 wrote:
      Kakorat wrote:

      Vizorus69 wrote:

      Lvxuria wrote:
      No one deserves eternal punishment.

      Then why in za warudo does Christian's hell is forever. Heck, even Jesus said eternal death in hell.

      For the sake of this wiki, let's not get into religion unless it pertains to Jojo. Prevents many bad things from happening.

      But Jesus is in JoJo. Part 7.

      And Part 1.

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    • WZLZ wrote:
      Vizorus69 wrote:
      Kakorat wrote:

      Vizorus69 wrote:

      Lvxuria wrote:
      No one deserves eternal punishment.

      Then why in za warudo does Christian's hell is forever. Heck, even Jesus said eternal death in hell.

      For the sake of this wiki, let's not get into religion unless it pertains to Jojo. Prevents many bad things from happening.

      But Jesus is in JoJo. Part 7.

      And Part 1.

      He is?

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    • Vizorus69 wrote:
      WZLZ wrote:
      Vizorus69 wrote:
      Kakorat wrote:

      Vizorus69 wrote:

      Lvxuria wrote:
      No one deserves eternal punishment.

      Then why in za warudo does Christian's hell is forever. Heck, even Jesus said eternal death in hell.

      For the sake of this wiki, let's not get into religion unless it pertains to Jojo. Prevents many bad things from happening.

      But Jesus is in JoJo. Part 7.

      And Part 1.

      He is?

      Theory, no fact. The theory says it was speedwagon, I think.

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    • Lvxuria wrote:
      Vizorus69 wrote:
      WZLZ wrote:
      Vizorus69 wrote:
      Kakorat wrote:

      Vizorus69 wrote:

      Lvxuria wrote:
      No one deserves eternal punishment.

      Then why in za warudo does Christian's hell is forever. Heck, even Jesus said eternal death in hell.

      For the sake of this wiki, let's not get into religion unless it pertains to Jojo. Prevents many bad things from happening.

      But Jesus is in JoJo. Part 7.

      And Part 1.

      He is?

      Theory, no fact. The theory says it was speedwagon, I think.

      Speedwagon's hair is blonde. Not brown.

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    • Lvxuria wrote:

      Theory, no fact. The theory says it was speedwagon, I think.

      No, I know what theory you are talking about, and it's Dire that MIGHT be Jesus, but it's sort of a stretch. Also, Yasuho is Koichi's alternate counterpart, and they both have completely different hair colors. Don't forget about Jonathan and Johnny, too. Alternate versions of Jojo characters having different haircolors and styles altogether isn't new.

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      Lvxuria wrote:

      Theory, no fact. The theory says it was speedwagon, I think.

      No, I know what theory you are talking about, and it's Dire that MIGHT be Jesus, but it's sort of a stretch. Also, Yasuho is Koichi's alternate counterpart, and they both have completely different hair colors. Don't forget about Jonathan and Johnny, too. Alternate versions of Jojo characters having different haircolors and styles altogether isn't new.

      How can Dire be Jesus if he exist as a living being in part 1?

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    • I found a link to a video explaining it:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMf-zG09kaM

      It's a stretch, but it makes some key points.

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    • HouseBlack wrote:
      From a technicaly point-of-view, Diavolo did deserve the GER Death Loop. Cause, really, he DID commit an infinite crime.

      How "long" of a crime is murder? It depends on the kind of world you live in.

      If you live in a world with reincarnation, it's worth the experience of a single death. Cause the person who was murdered had to experience 1 death and then gets to reincarnate.

      But in a world without reincarnation, it would have to be worth 1 permament death. Cause the person who was murdered is dead and gone forever. So, in order to be equal, the perpetrator would also have to be dead and gone forever. Otherwise the perpetrator isn't getting a sentence equal to the crime. The victim is gone for all of eternity, so the perpetrator should be gone for all of eternity as well. That is justice. A punishment that matches the crime.

      Unfortunately, this is impossible for Diavolo. Because Diavolo murdered more than one person. Which means that he would have to be dead and gone forever more than one time. Which is an oxymoron. You can only be dead and gone forever once. Otherwise it wasn't forever. This means it's impossible to punish Diavolo fittingly.

      Unless you use a loophole like GER.

      If we're being technical, eternal death is eternal. So no amount of pain, no matter how vast, can equal it. Cause it's eternal.

      GER never actually kills Diavolo for good. It just makes him experience death over and over again. So GER never actually gives Diavolo the eternal deaths he deserves. However, since Diavolo can't actually have the multiple eternities of deaths that he deserves, GER is the next best thing.

      Since, because he is never dead for good, he is actually receiving a lighter punishment than his crimes warrant. But since it goes on forever, I don't think anyone is going to complain about him getting off lightly.

      If we're using pure logic without sentamentality, than the answer to this question is yes. Diavolo deserves his fate. Because he killed multiple people off for good, but he can't be killed off for good multiple times. So instead he experiences pain forever. Cause the worser punishment he deserves is impossible.

      Very well thought out, but I don't think this is something that can be boiled down to pure logic. 1 life can be priceless to one and worthless to the next. So Diavolo's punsihment can be fitting depending on if you asked a mother whos' child died because of Diavolo's drug peddling, theres no price thats equivalent to her baby boy. We inject sentimentality when we assume Diavolo DESERVES to be punished at all. Someone could equally apply all the damage he has done indirectly throughout JoJo against his indirect good and weigh him in as doing more good than bad in his life.

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    • Honestly, we can all just argue about whether Diavolo deserve it or not, but life is always giving us stuff that we don't deserve, like poverty, torture, giving birth, school, exam, homework, etc, etc. Infinite death loops? We can argue about whether Diavolo deserved it or not, but that's just life (or fate). It's painful and filled with suffering.

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    • Vizorus69 wrote:
      Honestly, we can all just argue about whether Diavolo deserve it or not, but life is always giving us stuff that we don't deserve, like poverty, torture, giving birth, school, exam, homework, etc, etc. Infinite death loops? We can argue about whether Diavolo deserved it or not, but that's just life (or fate). It's painful and filled with suffering.

      There is truth to this, but I just want to point out we as humans tend to take the good things in life as if we deserve them uncondiontionally. Iggy, Avdol, and Bucciarati presumbly went on to to enjoy Heaven for eternity, but we kinda stop there and don't consider how thier finite actions garnered an eternal worth of peace.

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    • TysonHurricane wrote:
      Vizorus69 wrote:
      Honestly, we can all just argue about whether Diavolo deserve it or not, but life is always giving us stuff that we don't deserve, like poverty, torture, giving birth, school, exam, homework, etc, etc. Infinite death loops? We can argue about whether Diavolo deserved it or not, but that's just life (or fate). It's painful and filled with suffering.
      There is truth to this, but I just want to point out we as humans tend to take the good things in life as if we deserve them uncondiontionally. Iggy, Avdol, and Bucciarati presumbly went on to to enjoy Heaven for eternity, but we kinda stop there and don't consider how thier finite actions garnered an eternal worth of peace.

      And do we consider what bad things they have done that is outweighed by that good? Diavolo's punishment isn't as bad as Kira's. Pain is just a part of life so deal with it, Diavolo. Kira's punishment is boredom.

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    • And do we consider what bad things they have done that is outweighed by that good? Diavolo's punishment isn't as bad as Kira's. Pain is just a part of life so deal with it, Diavolo. Kira's punishment is boredom.

      I don't think so, but the point was that we often think they deserve eternal rest, rather than as a fact of life. They get a whole lot of good for doing in comparison very little. I think Kira actually has it better, he gets to live his quiet life with purpose. I don't think theres any mention of him actually paying for his crimes in the afterlife, we assume so by the hands that took him but its not like he mentions any torment. He essentially gets a second chance.

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    • I think Kars easily got the worst treatment of any villain in Jojo, and he actually had a decent goal.

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    • Kakorat wrote:
      I think Kars easily got the worst treatment of any villain in Jojo, and he actually had a decent goal.

      Didn't he just stop thinking which is the same as dead? That's like the least horrible treatment.

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    • Vizorus69 wrote:
      Kakorat wrote:
      I think Kars easily got the worst treatment of any villain in Jojo, and he actually had a decent goal.
      Didn't he just stop thinking which is the same as dead? That's like the least horrible treatment.

      Nope, he was just frozen solid in space. He was still alive and conscious, but couldn't move in the slightest.

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    • I know people might not want to discuss religion but I think Araki made it intentionally related to Christianity. For one, he named the villain Diavolo (literally means Devil) and then Giorno being the son of Dio (God). We all know the punishment dished out Jesus did to Satan, he condemns him to an eternal suffering. Lucifer (can be alluded to Doppio) fell after denying God's love because of pride. He believed he is the master of his own fate and Diavolo thinks of himself as the emperor and fate is something he governs. At the final confrontation, Diavolo was given a chance to accept that the arrow rejected him but he denies everything. GER acts as a manifestation of God in this case, as there's literally no way to stop it. He is eternally damned for all of the sins he committed.

      Now, judging whether he deserved it or not is hard. Based on his actions, his murders and atrocities and ultimately him not feeling any remorse, regret or even thinks of himself in the wrong, I'd say he deserved it. He had the chance to die peacefully one time but still denies his wrongdoings until the very end. The infinite death served as his eternal damnation or hell (if he dies, he's going there anyway so all the same) and no amount of regret after it will save him from the suffering.

      That is the message Araki wanted to impart I think, with all the references.

      EDIT: Also, I just thought of it, Diavolo's birth was left ambigious. Her mother was impregnated in a prison, with no possible father as all guards and inmates are women. His mother doesn't even talk about it and she was killed mysteriously. This circumstance is closer to Jesus but since in theology, Lucifer was the most beautiful creature among God's creation before humans was created. Diavolo was adopted by a priest but he killed him too. Diavolo really is the devil that was prophecised to be punished by the son of God lol

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    • Rio06 wrote: I know people might not want to discuss religion but I think Araki made it intentionally related to Christianity. For one, he named the villain Diavolo (literally means Devil) and then Giorno being the son of Dio (God). We all know the punishment dished out Jesus did to Satan, he condemns him to an eternal suffering. Lucifer (can be alluded to Doppio) fell after denying God's love because of pride. He believed he is the master of his own fate and Diavolo thinks of himself as the emperor and fate is something he governs. At the final confrontation, Diavolo was given a chance to accept that the arrow rejected him but he denies everything. GER acts as a manifestation of God in this case, as there's literally no way to stop it. He is eternally damned for all of the sins he committed.

      Now, judging whether he deserved it or not is hard. Based on his actions, his murders and atrocities and ultimately him not feeling any remorse, regret or even thinks of himself in the wrong, I'd say he deserved it. He had the chance to die peacefully one time but still denies his wrongdoings until the very end. The infinite death served as his eternal damnation or hell (if he dies, he's going there anyway so all the same) and no amount of regret after it will save him from the suffering.

      That is the message Araki wanted to impart I think, with all the references.

      EDIT: Also, I just thought of it, Diavolo's birth was left ambigious. Her mother was impregnated in a prison, with no possible father as all guards and inmates are women. His mother doesn't even talk about it and she was killed mysteriously. This circumstance is closer to Jesus but since in theology, Lucifer was the most beautiful creature among God's creation before humans was created. Diavolo was adopted by a priest but he killed him too. Diavolo really is the devil that was prophecised to be punished by the son of God lol

      I don't really see how literary allusions and parallels actually justify anything. Like, at all. All metaphors break down at some point, and tend to be flawed in some area. In this case, I'd just like to point out that, by your logic, we should all worship Dio. I mean, I'm sure some people are all for that, but I suspect how some of them "worship" him is very...unorthodox, if you catch my drift.

      Just because a character is based on, or parallels, another character, or even a real person, doesn't mean you can ascribe actions, or the consequences from those actions, from one to the other. Like...how deep does the parallel need to go, and should it go both ways? Because I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be out for IRL Vanilla Ice's blood after they've watched Part III, if it does.

      And that's just one example. Is Pillar Man Santana secretly a really good guitarist? Is Carlos Santana actually an Aztec God of Fitness who casually consumes people? Should we punish half of Dire Straits for betraying Speedwagon? On a related note, would Dire still be alive if the band hadn't broken up? Where does the guilt-by-metaphor train stop? Because I'm pretty sure it leaves the tracks quite rapidly, and the driver is either passed out or high, so I don't think it's going to be stopping anywhere reasonable.

      Edit: Or, just keeping this to Part 5, is Fugo Judas in this scenario? When did Lucifer get a daughter? Does that make Trish half-devil? When did Jesus' disciples put a fish hook through a guy's eyelid, use his glasses to burn his eyes, and then dance? I don't remember that part of the Bible. I guess Gio did curse a tree, which then died, that one time, so I'll give you that. Is Bruno Lazarus? Or is he John the Baptist?

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    • Nixeu
      Nixeu removed this reply because:
      Accidental post
      19:00, September 14, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • You have to keep in mind the fact that just because a metaphor doesn't make sense in some parts, doesn't make it technically wrong. Especially considering that you aren't supposed to take it SO literally that you branch out of the intention. That's what I think you are doing with DIO being God meaning he should be worshiped, or Santana being a guitarist. Especially considering those names were made WAY before Giorno and Diavolo were. Metaphors aren't supposed to be taken too literally. They are metaphors, after all.

      On a side note, I really like that connection between the Bible and Jojo. It really makes sense when the key details are looked at, and not every one of them.

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    • Zodazzle wrote: You have to keep in mind the fact that just because a metaphor doesn't make sense in some parts, doesn't make it technically wrong. Especially considering that you aren't supposed to take it SO literally that you branch out of the intention. That's what I think you are doing with DIO being God meaning he should be worshiped, or Santana being a guitarist. Especially considering those names were made WAY before Giorno and Diavolo were. Metaphors aren't supposed to be taken too literally. They are metaphors, after all.

      On a side note, I really like that connection between the Bible and Jojo. It really makes sense when the key details are looked at, and not every one of them.

      I'm fine with people drawing parallels and using metaphors...until they start trying to impose aspects of one metaphor onto another in an argument. That's when the reasoning becomes fallacious, and that's when you need to start breaking out the silly ones to counter it. Imposing the actions of something you've compared to something else onto that second something is really disingenuous, IMO. It makes for some laughably bad argumentation, for the exact reasons you've stated: the metaphors are flawed, and only parts of them apply. In an argument, you don't get to cherry-pick like that.

      Like...Doppio might have parallels to Lucifer, Diavolo to the Devil, or Giorno to Jesus. That's perfectly reasonable. Those parallels, however, are kinda irrelevant to the question of "did the character of Diavolo deserve eternal punishment", because Diavolo isn't actually Satan. Now, that might have to with why Araki had his story end like that. But the parallels don't actually justify it, from an in-universe perspective.

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    • Diavolo didn't really deserve it. If you think about it, gangs are usually selling drugs all the time. This is a usual. And he can't really say who they sell it to. Giorno and Buccierati are kind of new to being in a gang. Giorno wanting to be a gang star, following his "Idle's" path. The idle was righteous to him so this is what led him on this path.

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    • He is an asshole,infinite death loop?probably not,but I dont think there is any other way for them to beat King Crimson :D

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    • I believe he does. To be honest, the time loop is pretty much hell, as he goes through various stages of pain, and not being able to die.

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    • Diavolo is the kinda guy who sews his own mother's mouth shut so she cannot scream when he traps her underground. Diavolo is the kinda guys who burns entire villages down so that no one finds him. Diavolo is the kinda guys who Intentionally sells drugs to kids for his own personal gain. Did he deserve the time loop however? Well, considering his actions, he was going to go to hell anyway and this is just another form of it. (not saying either heaven or hell exists just saying that hell has been shown to be a thing throughout the jojo cannon, think the morioh alleyway.)

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    • Considering all the traumas he went through inorder to get a split personality, I believe he didn't, as it wasn't just with evil intent, but from a person who could be considered mentally disabled or something.

      Plus, had Giorno done nothing, and things wouldn't have changed too much, Passione would have kept the drug control instead of whoever took over afterwards and Trish would have died, that's about it.

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    • Diavolo did bad things, and no mental issues can make up for it. You cannot justify a murderer not being evil with their plethora of mental issues. He DID kill with murderous intent, he wanted to make sure nobody knew his identity. HE WANTED TO KILL HIS OWN DAMN DAUGHTER FOR THIS. Stop justifying Diavolo with mental issues. That's not how justification works.

      To add to that, Diavolo was practically drowning Italy in drugs and narcotics. And you say that it's alright for him to control that? Hell, even Bucciarati wanted to stop Diavolo because the guy had a  keen intent to keep drugs circulating. DRUGS AREN'T GOOD. Why do you think it became a national issue in the U.S.?

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    • Justifying with mental disorder isnt working here,Diavolo have 2 personality,one is an asshole,n one loved that said asshole,if both are assholes no justification can be made lol,if anything he is responsible for the both persona.

      and yeah,"things wouldn't have changed too much",except he took over after Diavolo n basically controlled the underworld now n he could(well pretty sure he did) stop the drug deal in Italy entirely,plus the completely innocent Trish made it alive,so yeah,thats not much :D

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    • Justify? I never said anything about such a thing, what he did cannot be justified, but the reason he did it in the first place was that he became a shitty person because of his past, mainly, and when people have traumas they can change at the point of losing their morals for others' fault, also, do you know how bad it is to experience death for infinity? He is evil, but not enough to deserve as much.

      Also, if Giorno stopped the drug things he wouldn't have been able to magically stop all people under Passione to do their trades, they would have rather left as, you know, there is no payment in a gang that doesn't do drug trade, also mafia isn't a monopoly, Passione was one gang, i bet that after Vento Aureo's plot another gang took over and the drug traders in Passione moved there or were replaced, in other words, when a boss is caught in real life the drug trade continues uneder someone else's control and the general situation in south Italy doesn't change, Giorno did well by limiting the evil brought by Passione, but things changed only slightly in the grand scheme of things.

      This is manga, but if it's ment to be realistic part 5 ending had the least amount of effect in amount of innocent people suffering, that's what i ment when i said that things didn't change much, or, better, as much as it seems to someone who doesn't know much about mafia.

      p.s. I know quite a lot about mafia due to one of my teachers who used to often talk about that as she is sicilian. 

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    • I mean,the whole point of Giorno joining Passione is to stop the drug trade in Italy,kinda unlikely to think in the end of his story,he failed to do so,n also you grossly underestimate the power of Passione's Boss,you know how terrifying Diavolo can be to people even thinking of betraying him?Giorno is a nice person who moves on morals,but he is still DIO's son,yes that fkin DIO,if he so wanted,he could get rid of anyone trying to pull weird shit in Italy,his own gang or another,being the boss grant him that much power,

      n yeah wat you're doing is finding justification for his action,"he went through shitty past,so he doesnt deserve that much punishment",yeah no,you n I can argue forever,but if he pulls that shit he pulled in Italy on you,I think naturally you'll 100% say he deserves the worst possible shit available,have him die in peace OR endless torture where he can regret every single shit he pulled in life,n also as the comments above pointed out,he is going to hell anyway,wat difference does it make lmao

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    • I'm not saying that Giorno's actions were useless, part 5 is my favourite actually, but stopping all shitty people to do their shitty things is too much.

      Also, let's not discuss about morality, ok? There is no point, you think that Diavolo deserves infinite death, i don't think that anyone in reality or fiction i have ever herd of would deserve this much, and it's fine, we can live with that.

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    • I don't think Diavolo deserves an infinite death. I said I thought he deserved to die for a long time, equivalent enough to the amount of time that people spent dying to his hands or indirectly by him, but not forever. I feel like I need to establish that just so it's clear. Also, I have no clue what you mean by "stopping all shitty people to do their shitty things is too much".

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    • I was talking about all the criminals that work under passione, there are drug dealers, people who do the things Luca used to do... these people didn't start to do their "jobs" because of Diavolo, so it makes sense to think that even without Diavolo they would keep doing it even if Giorno doesn't like the idea, as i understood it, part 5 was like a beginning for Giorno's long term plan to fix the mafia problem, but there is no way that, by the end of part 5, his plan succeded.


      Also, I guess i didn't use the right words before, saying that not much changed, i guess i should have said that the "bad things" that Giorno wanted to stop were going to "be a thing" even without Diavolo, just on a slightly smaller scale (I'm not saying that Diavolo was innocent, far from it).

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    • Diavolo didn't just indirectly kill people through Passione's lower ranks, he also basically started the journey of Stand Arrows. Parts 3-6 all happened because of Diavolo giving the arrows to the wrong people. He may not of meant it, but it still is an issue that he began all of the deaths throughout a chunk of Jojo, and probably even more off-screen. He deserves some punishment for just beginning a lot of bad shit indirectly. Also, Giorno wanting to stop bad things is not a bad thing. Even so much as decreasing it would be doing Italy a huge favor. 

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    • Um... i forgot about the arrow thing honestly, I give you that, but i never said anything about Giorno wanting to stop bad things being bad, i just said it wasn't very effective in the short term.

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    • It's not really ineffective to stop Passione's trade since they are the number one mafia in Italy and are one of the main reasons why Italy is so corrupt, but I get where you're coming from. It is pretty futile, and there will always be corruption, but the way I see it is that if you can decrease it, you might as well.

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    • Zodazzle wrote: It's not really ineffective to stop Passione's trade since they are the number one mafia in Italy and are one of the main reasons why Italy is so corrupt, but I get where you're coming from. It is pretty futile, and there will always be corruption, but the way I see it is that if you can decrease it, you might as well.

      Plus, most Mafias don't have ready access to supernatural powers. Pretty much all of La Squadra's abilities are a coroner's nightmare. "He died of hypoxia and being cut open from the inside", to use Metallica as an example, is not exactly a report that the cops would be able to do much with, in terms of investigating. And Bruno's team could probably get into a prolonged fight with the Italian SWAT-equivalent and win, if they were smart about it.

      Hell, if you take Purple Haze Feedback as canon, even their drugs were supernatural, in that they don't stay drugs for very long (6 weeks, I think?), increasing demand and making their supply and exclusive control more stable than it would be dealing a non-paranormal drug. Also, it might be more addicting, not sure. Point is, pretty much anything shady Passione gets up to is likely significantly worse or more harmful to society, due to their high number of Stand Users.

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    • To understand why an infinite punishment is what it is, you need to understand the implications of what feeling that is, having your final moments reliving hell over and over again, like a a tape of your partner cheating on you that its unbearable to watch yet you cant stop in horror and shock. thats what diavolo has been doing to itally forcing parents innocent people, and his own loved ones to suffer and watch people they care about die for a sick mans game. thats beyond deserving of a personal hell, thats exactly what he deserved and thats what he got, a hell for a man who has made a living off making other peoples lives a living hell. Not to mention the whole indirectly restarting the universe thing, that considering he is technically the starting point to that whole thing really puts a cap on it. He used a power that no one knows and few can explain and used it to maintain control, fear, power over italy, its one thing to fight a man with things he can understand, its another to destroy that man with powers he cant understand for your own selfish reasons

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    • Just so you know, person who posted the comment before me, said from an Italian (me), mafia in real life isn't too different than how it is in Jojo, except for the obvious stand related things, and it's really not a big deal at all, not now, not in 2001, not in jojo considering how (almost) everything was extreamly realistic, and few mafia groups (like Passione in size) control one of 5-6 region seach, not the entire Italy.

      I'm not saying you are wrong,

      I'm not saying you are right, 

      I'm not saying that Mafia is a good thing either, and i never would, 

      I'm just saying that you are basing your opinion on made-up, overexagerated facts, and you are kinda making my country sound like a terrible place that really is no worse than the average in therms of ciminality, and I can't really manage to not feel a bit bothered by that, just a bit.

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    • I'm basing my opinion off of the canonical story. In Part 5, Italy is really corrupt. And the number one reason why is portrayed to be the mafia. Specifically Passione, who are number one in the country. Not trying to be aggressive, I'm trying to say that you don't need to be bothered. I was never talking about real life Italy. I'm trying to make this sound good willed, but it's hard to say that without getting the facts straight too. It is in a way my fault for not specifying fiction or the real word.

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    • Yeah with a world about buff men running a borderline gay mafia with psychic buff guys protecting them and helping them corrupt itally with psychic ghost drugs(dont even want to know how that makes sense) and super powers. im pretty sure you should take part 5's itally with a grain of salt when comparing it to the real world

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      I'm basing my opinion off of the canonical story. In Part 5, Italy is really corrupt. And the number one reason why is portrayed to be the mafia. Specifically Passione, who are number one in the country. Not trying to be aggressive, I'm trying to say that you don't need to be bothered. I was never talking about real life Italy. I'm trying to make this sound good willed, but it's hard to say that without getting the facts straight too. It is in a way my fault for not specifying fiction or the real word.

      First, i wasn't talking about what you said, although i disagree with your opinion, that's behiond the point.


      Second, i'm not taking anything as an offense, i'm just a bit nitpicky i guess, but there were many exagerations, like having people live a living hell, Diavolo killing innocents and all, remember how Diavolo was reluctant to let Cioccolata stay alive in the first place? Not saying he doesn't do that at all, but... i guess it's hard to put it in a way that doesn't sound like i'm defending him, so i'll just give up on this.


      Third, i know that mafia exists and it's a problem in my country, it's a reality that i would never deny, but everything was "realistic" in the manga, government, police, Luca, the whole beginning, "just" with stands, Jbyrdab put it in a way that feels... exagerated? I guess it's too hard to explain, but again, it's not a big deal at all, so don't worry, it's all ok.

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    • Zodazzle wrote: I'm basing my opinion off of the canonical story. In Part 5, Italy is really corrupt. And the number one reason why is portrayed to be the mafia. Specifically Passione, who are number one in the country. Not trying to be aggressive, I'm trying to say that you don't need to be bothered. I was never talking about real life Italy. I'm trying to make this sound good willed, but it's hard to say that without getting the facts straight too. It is in a way my fault for not specifying fiction or the real word.

      Thing is, the Mafia isn't really as bad, even in Part 5, as some people seem to think. Yes, even Passione. Certainly, there are more than a few absolutely disgusting people in Passione, who are pretty much about as scummy and evil as it gets. And then there are also people like Giorno's team, who, while certainly not saints, are nonetheless not monsters, either. And they certainly do things that hurt others. That said, that's true of criminals in-general, and the Mafia is usually a bit more focused, and, to some extent, honorable in their conduct than most criminals.

      Even the team of assassins has members who care a lot about their teammates. That was part of why they did what they did: to avenge their fallen comrades. Or look at the guy making the drugs, based on Purple Haze Feedback. He had people he really cared about on his team. In a lot of ways, Part 5 makes you feel sympathetic for the enemies in ways a lot of Parts fail to, because it actual shows at least some of the bonds they share with one another, and the effect those bonds being broken have on the survivors. From Pericolo to Doppio, the members of Passione are shown to be people, and often people with at least some redeeming characteristics. David Productions has been making that even clearer in their adaptation of the series, and I love them for that.

      My point is, most of Passione aren't monsters who just kill massive numbers of people with no remorse. Even Prosciutto didn't really crank his aging power to the point where many, if anyone, actually died. They might be ruthless and willing to use violence to get what they want...but then, that describes several of our protagonists so far, Giorno included. Bruno's team really isn't that different from La Squadra.

      Hell, even Diavolo has a sympathetic side to him, and I'm not talking about Doppio. He's so afraid of losing or being found out that it kinda seems like he's stopped enjoying anything in life. For someone with one of the most broken and powerful Stands in the series, the guy is so utterly paranoid about being found out that it seems like his life is actually pretty empty. Makes you sympathize with him a bit...until you recall the sh*t he does to make sure his identity stays hidden, and what he's done in the past, and then you hate him again. Honestly, he's kinda like Kira in that regard.

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    • Nixeu
      Nixeu removed this reply because:
      Glitch double post.
      19:04, March 11, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Nixeu
      Nixeu removed this reply because:
      Glitch triple post
      19:04, March 11, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I don't think we are talking about the original discussion anymore. This is about Diavolo, not about the gang and if Jojo holds up in reality.

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    • this has been going on for 2 years please let it die

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    • Diavolo cant so we cant either

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    • Ye he deserved infinite death, he wanted to kill Trish (Daughter), he used ppl in his gang and then kill them. etc

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    • The answer is no. Simple.

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    • problem is thats not that simple. personally i believe yes as anyone who truly disregards life like that for the sake of something like anonymity. truely deserves to have their life abused to the same degree. all life is precious how ever if you use that life only to abuse and take others lives then you earned an eternal hell all your own. Not to mention he played an insanely major part in restarting the universe and bringing stands into the world which is literally anyone killed during the process anyone who was or will have been born wouldnt be and instead that originating person would be replaced. so id say that infinite death for complete erasure is a fair deal

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    • There's no need to repeat yourself every time someone disagrees with you, also, sorry if i say this, but calling him guilty for alll who died because of stands is just nonsense, on this i'm going to say that he has literally 0% fault, he had no way of knowing, it's like saying that Einstain is responsible for the atomic bombs because the idea started from his theories, or saying that one of Hitler's ancestors that lived in the stone age is partly responsible for the genocide in WW2, i get it, you feel like Diavolo is evil and you are right, but this doesn't mean that you can call him responsible for anything he did not on purpose as well. 

      Also, think twice before saying stuff like: "anyone who truly disregards life like that for the sake of something like anonymity truly deserves to have their life abused to the same degree", this is considered a very messed up way of thinking by many, and I hope you don't really mean it.

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    • its wrong to believe that people who disregard and waste life like that dont deserve punishment? not to mention while i wont blame him for stands and people using them to kill others he still played a major part in restarting the universe even unknowingly. While with einstein he didnt even realise his equation could equal a nuclear bomb "math * war + america = bomb" At the point which he sold them to enya he most likely knew what they did as he kept one to create king crimson. Also nuclear bomb to the universe restarting, he still gave arrows that could bestow dangerous powers to a crotchety insane bat that ended up causing alot of pain and suffering. he still has fault on that even without made in heaven restarting the universe and everything. just as the being that forged the arrows is at fault for creating such dangerous artifacts without realising that they could legitimately end up doing such an act

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    • Punishment is a thing, the same abuse is another.

      So, tell me if I understand what you said:

      If one finds an artifact, like archeologists do all the time, they need to assume that it may have the potential to reset the universe based on absurd stories (that in this case were true) and, for one to not be at fault if such a thing happens, they need to figure out that something is wrong and put the dangerous artifact in a safer place for ever, is that correct?

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    • Red anvil wrote: There's no need to repeat yourself every time someone disagrees with you, also, sorry if i say this, but calling him guilty for alll who died because of stands is just nonsense, on this i'm going to say that he has literally 0% fault, he had no way of knowing, it's like saying that Einstain is responsible for the atomic bombs because the idea started from his theories, or saying that one of Hitler's ancestors that lived in the stone age is partly responsible for the genocide in WW2, i get it, you feel like Diavolo is evil and you are right, but this doesn't mean that you can call him responsible for anything he did not on purpose as well. 

      Also, think twice before saying stuff like: "anyone who truly disregards life like that for the sake of something like anonymity truly deserves to have their life abused to the same degree", this is considered a very messed up way of thinking by many, and I hope you don't really mean it.

      Just going to have to chime in here and say that Einstein's theory is rather tangential to the development of nuclear weapons, at best. His equation predicted that a lot of energy could be gained from a small amount of matter. That's about it. I'm not sure his name came up more than once or twice in a book I read on the history nuclear physics and power. His equations are part of the math that can calculate the energy produced by fission, but Einstein's work overall isn't all that integral to the development of the nuclear bomb.

      Ernest Ruthford's work was what really laid the foundations for the bombs, not Einstein, and his work was contemporaneous with Einstein's. Rutherford's work alone might have resulted in fission bombs, no relativity needed, beyond maybe certain yield calculations. Even those seem to have been less than precise, because the yield was double the highest expected value, and 4 times the commonly expected yield, in the Trinity test.

      Einstien did a write a letter about the subject of nuclear weapons to Roosevelt, due to concerns that Germany was developing such weapons, at least partially acting as a go-between for Leo Szilard, amongst others. Szilard is the guy who first came up with the concept of a nuclear chain reaction, based on some of Rutherford's work. So he did seriously impact the Manhattan Project's existence. But his work, while at least somewhat related, wasn't really the bedrock of nuclear physics.

      Honestly, though, that kinda just makes it work better as an analogy. Diavolo just found the arrowheads. DIO is the one who actually studied how to produce an uber-Stand and distributed the Arrows to his minions. Diavolo had basically nothing to do with that.

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    • Jbyrdab wrote:
      its wrong to believe that people who disregard and waste life like that dont deserve punishment? not to mention while i wont blame him for stands and people using them to kill others he still played a major part in restarting the universe even unknowingly. While with einstein he didnt even realise his equation could equal a nuclear bomb "math * war + america = bomb" At the point which he sold them to enya he most likely knew what they did as he kept one to create king crimson. Also nuclear bomb to the universe restarting, he still gave arrows that could bestow dangerous powers to a crotchety insane bat that ended up causing alot of pain and suffering. he still has fault on that even without made in heaven restarting the universe and everything. just as the being that forged the arrows is at fault for creating such dangerous artifacts without realising that they could legitimately end up doing such an act

      People that have a very destructive belief shouldnt be punished unless they, you know. Act upon it. Did Diavolo act upon it? Yeah. So he should be punished. But not by being killed over and over. No one deserves that

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    • Might makes right and Giorno decided a suiting punishment was for Diavolo was to die over and over again. Go ahead and say you're mighter (and therefore more right) than Giorno. 

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    • Giorno is a fictional character therefore I'm mightier, as I can reform his character and stand however I please

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    • Actually the arrows were found in 70's diavolo was like 10 when they were discovered and at the point he obtained them it was concluded they contained a virus that was thought to want to kill all of humanity. so even if he didnt know they made stand they supposedly killed anything they pierced(obivously disproven) he stole them, and decided to sell them. However at that point it was shown that they found that some people could live with the "virus" which gave them stands. So these things could have done one of two things, painfully killing anyone who was pierced by them, and giving them possibly dangerous powers (which he did and condoned both) these things were dangerous enough that when they were found in greenland they were hidden underground in egypt. he still uknowingly gave superpowers to a sadistic madman vampire, a gay priest that eventually restarted the universe, and created an entire mafia and manipulated itally from the shadows by giving people stands or murdering those who couldnt gain them. That while unintention is still his fault and thats just an overview of some of the things he contributed to if not outright did. Honestly for the literal mayhem and destruction this guy caused he really does deserve to suffer forever. Not like a sadistic mad man like him doesnt deserve a worse hell anyway(as far as i know that does exist in jojo)

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    • Jbyrdab wrote: Actually the arrows were found in 70's diavolo was like 10 when they were discovered and at the point he obtained them it was concluded they contained a virus that was thought to want to kill all of humanity. so even if he didnt know they made stand they supposedly killed anything they pierced(obivously disproven) he stole them, and decided to sell them. However at that point it was shown that they found that some people could live with the "virus" which gave them stands. So these things could have done one of two things, painfully killing anyone who was pierced by them, and giving them possibly dangerous powers (which he did and condoned both) these things were dangerous enough that when they were found in greenland they were hidden underground in egypt. he still uknowingly gave superpowers to a sadistic madman vampire, a gay priest that eventually restarted the universe, and created an entire mafia and manipulated itally from the shadows by giving people stands or murdering those who couldnt gain them. That while unintention is still his fault and thats just an overview of some of the things he contributed to if not outright did. Honestly for the literal mayhem and destruction this guy caused he really does deserve to suffer forever. Not like a sadistic mad man like him doesnt deserve a worse hell anyway(as far as i know that does exist in jojo)

      Well now you're just factually wrong. The Arrowheads were found when Diavolo was 19, around '86 or '87. It's on his page, on this wiki. That you didn't bother to double check, when it's a few clicks away, is a bit aggravating.

      And, while, yes, about a decade before that, the incident with the meteorite occurred, it doesn't seem to have been common knowledge. Assuming it's not a bullsh*t conspiracy theory or urban legend Pollnareff dug up from somewhere on the internet. I've always been skeptical about Polnareff's hypothesis about the Arrows' origins, at least partially because it's coming from the comedy relief of Part III.

      And, even if it was true, why in the world would Diavolo assume that the meteoric iron Arrowheads he found in Egypt were made from materials found in Greenland? That's a pretty big jump to make. And, again, that assumes Pollnareff wasn't just wrong, and that Diavolo knew about said meteorite. Which seems unlikely. If the meteorite was a well-known thing, I'd assume some like Jotaro or Joseph would figure out the link before Polnareff.

      So, no. He sold what he might, or might not, have known were Stand-granting Arrowheads to an old lady, who was, I will remind you, a fortune-teller. Enya seems to know a lot about the supernatural. She was likely guided to Diavolo by Fate, or her Sight. Probably knew more about them than he did.

      And no, Pucci and DIO's actions are still not Diavolo's fault. If you really want to use that logic, then I'd like to point out that Erina, and potentially Johnathan, are equally responsible for all that crap. Because their actions were what allowed DIO to be around in the first place, if Erina really was the one who out him back in his coffin. Or, hell, you could blame Jotaro for all the deaths Pucci caused, since his actions, like reading DIO's diary and coming to see Jolyne, directly lead to that. Hell, you could probably add Jolyne to that, for going for the disc and Anasui instead of stopping Pucci.

      Stop trying to blame Diavolo for other people's actions. The man has done more than enough worth condemnation, you don't need to try and pin Pucci and DIO's bullsh*t on him too. Playing a role in something doesn't mean you're responsible for it. It's the people who actually did the terrible thing's fault. I'm really hoping you only apply that sort on logic to debates on the Internet, because that sort of reasoning can cause...issues.

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    • Probably.

      And lets not take Mental Disorders or Doppio into this. Diavolo hasn't shown any sign of one which would explain his actions. He genuinely tried to kill his daughter. Doppio has shown signs of Mental Disorders, but he's not the one who started this shit.

      There are overall worse people irl where I would say that they would 100% deserve that fate.

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    • Lord Spectrum wrote:
      Might makes right and Giorno decided a suiting punishment was for Diavolo was to die over and over again. Go ahead and say you're mighter (and therefore more right) than Giorno. 

      Let's not forget a couple of things here:

      1. Giorno is 15 and wasn't raised properly, you can't expect him to be the most mature person on earth, that's not to say he's bad, he's my second favourite Jojo and a character i like a lot, but he doesn't have to be always right either.

      2. I may have misunderstood this part in the manga, but i'm positive that Giorno did not know the effect of GER when punching Diavolo, if Diavolo was just knocked unconcious and arrested, according to Italian law, he would have to spend the rest of his life in prison, from which he could easily escape, meaning that Giorno killing him there was a necessity, so, as far as we know, he might have wanted to simply "do what needed to be done", obviously that's very unlikely (99.9999% not the case), but you can't just assume that he wanted to give him infinite death either.

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      If you think about it, Diavolo stole the arrows from the excavation site and then gave 5 to Enya. This means that he is responsible for DIO acquiring a stand, and all the women he killed for blood
       
      That's like saying that George Joestar is responsible for DIO's actions because he had the stone mask. Diavolo is not responsible for DIO, he didn't even knew who was DIO and what was gonna happen to the arrows, it's not Diavolo's fault that the old lady he sold the arrows ended up being a crazy dangerous minion of DIO.
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    • Are you trying to make a point on a comment of mine, from 2017? And besides the point, Diavolo managed to start a chain of evil stand users by giving it to the wrong people. It's still his fault for Enya ever obtaining an arrow, DIO obtaining his stand, Yoshihiro Kira getting an arrow, Yoshikage Kira obtaining his stand, and a whole lot more. He is indirectly responsible, and he does deserve punishment for that. Now that doesn't mean I think he deserves eternal punishment, because if you were to also read that same comment from 2017, you will see that I only believe he deserves it for some time, and then can be properly killed.

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    • Considering what his methods were for keeping his throne...Yeah, he deserves to suffer many brutal deaths. However, Infinite Death Loop is a madness I would never wish even for a guy like him.

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    • It is impossible to commit infinite sin, or to be infinitely bad, and therefore it is not fair to give infinite punishment. But I have a theory that Diavolo's cycle ended after Part 6 because, well you know.

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    • isnt the concept of hell is the eternal torture for grave sinners?

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    • CaessarC wrote:
      isnt the concept of hell is the eternal torture for grave sinners?

      Yes, which never made any sense to me. How the fuck do you recieve eternal punishment for being imperfect. The fuck?

      Anyway, i'm here to bring up something. Y'all are saying Diovalo deserves it because of what Kira and DIO did. Firstly, that's guilt by association, which is not direct. Diovalo never DIRECTLY killed those people, so those aren't his actions. That means that he is absolved from those crimes because he never committed them. All he did was steal some arrows and maybe killed some dudes during his time in the lower ranks of Passione. Gangsters kill people. It's a fact of life. Besdies, being forced to kill or being ordered to kill is "dispassionate murder" in American law and is usually met with light sentences because they were forced to do it. So, what crimes has Diovalo actually committed? He stole some arrows and sold them to an old bitch. Doesn't really warrant eternal death loops, does it?

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      CaessarC wrote:
      isnt the concept of hell is the eternal torture for grave sinners?
      Yes, which never made any sense to me. How the fuck do you recieve eternal punishment for being imperfect. The fuck?

      Anyway, i'm here to bring up something. Y'all are saying Diovalo deserves it because of what Kira and DIO did. Firstly, that's guilt by association, which is not direct. Diovalo never DIRECTLY killed those people, so those aren't his actions. That means that he is absolved from those crimes because he never committed them. All he did was steal some arrows and maybe killed some dudes during his time in the lower ranks of Passione. Gangsters kill people. It's a fact of life. Besdies, being forced to kill or being ordered to kill is "dispassionate murder" in American law and is usually met with light sentences because they were forced to do it. So, what crimes has Diovalo actually committed? He stole some arrows and sold them to an old bitch. Doesn't really warrant eternal death loops, does it?

      Adding onto what i said, his attempted murder of his daughter and paranoia is also not counted because he has a disorder, which gets him an out via insanity.

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    • He is still a dangerous menace to society, just because he is insane doesnt excuse the amount of horrible murders and massacres that happened under his command of passione, remember, he got a majority of itally hooked on stand psychic drugs, he created multiple genocidal maniacs by giving them stands. unlike george where dio stole the mask, diavolo SOLD them to enya, he intentionally gave them to her, dio stole the mask and did something entirely unpredictable. Also the arrows were found in greenland back in 1970 and at that point they were discovered to have a "humanity genociding virus (aka stand magic)", they were lost and found in egypt in which diavolo stole them and sold them to enya the hag, but kept one for king crimson, his subordinates stands, and all the people black sabath killed/gave stands. what else do i say here, infinite punishment aside, like he literally started a chain of events leading to horrible world/universe threatening catastrophe while taking part in the killings. Seriously if diavolo didnt steal arrows which at the time were known to outright murder people, then all this never would have happened and well to be frank, the amount of ridiculous crap that the jojo's had to put up with until part 8 (majority of part 7 too) wouldnt have happened. Infinite death, for creating essentially ghost terrorism of infinite preportions, seems fair enough

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    • Cioccolata deserves infinite death loop in my opinion. 

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    • To put it simple, Jbyrdab, he did commit a crime while selling the arrows to Enya, but that crime was theft and selling illegally obtained items, a minor crime basically, and in reality you are not guilty for indirect consequences of a crime you commit, Enya and Dio gave the arrows around (yes, there's more to it like in part 4 etc. but it doesn't matter for this argument), so all the fault for that is on them, you are mixing up 2 completely separate crimes with different people at fault, and you can't do that, you can call Diavolo guilty of giving stands to his subordinates AFTER, but ONLY that.

      Also... quote: "he got a majority of italy hooked on stand psychic drugs, he created multiple genocidal maniacs by giving them stands" This is a lie, nothing more and nothing less than something you just made up because:

      1. Majority of Italy hooked up on drugs is just false, nothing suggests any difference from the real thing in this matter, and Italy is about average in drug deals, since there was no stated difference, it can be implied that the value in the manga be similar to the real one, so majority is waaaaaaaay too exagerated.

      2.Before Diavolo: an unspecified amount of people, let's call this number "X", were addicted by drugs sold by other people, in unspecified amount "Y". After Diavolo took over: some of Y joined Passione and got rid of some others to take control of their areas, so Y decreased, the amount of X for every Y increased (so did the income of every Y) and Diavolo, as boss, got part (most) of the income (this income would be higher if drugs are produced by stands like in PHF). This can be implied, as it's how things generally go and the countrary is never stated nor hinted at; notice how X never increased.

      3."multiple" is incorrect, read the part where Diavolo talks about Cioccolata, he either didn't meet others like him or got rid of them as killing everyone is bad for business, and Diavolo cared about business while he didn't care about killing or not, so it would make sense for him to get rid of anyone too dangerous unless they have an usefull stand.

      4. Cioccolata killed many before getting Green Day, if Formaggio (just a random example) did not have a stand he would kill with a gun, same for everyone else in passione, noone was made a killer by Diavolo except Doppio and eventual unmentioned cases that we can't assume anythig about.

      In conclusion, Diavolo took aver an already existant branch of the black market, he is definitely at fault just for being in it, as well as all being at fault for all the "extras" that were only possible after Stands were given away, but he didn't create that branch, that's a fact, but you are calling him responsible for everything.

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Boysmith2003 wrote:
      CaessarC wrote:
      isnt the concept of hell is the eternal torture for grave sinners?
      Yes, which never made any sense to me. How the fuck do you recieve eternal punishment for being imperfect. The fuck?

      Anyway, i'm here to bring up something. Y'all are saying Diovalo deserves it because of what Kira and DIO did. Firstly, that's guilt by association, which is not direct. Diovalo never DIRECTLY killed those people, so those aren't his actions. That means that he is absolved from those crimes because he never committed them. All he did was steal some arrows and maybe killed some dudes during his time in the lower ranks of Passione. Gangsters kill people. It's a fact of life. Besdies, being forced to kill or being ordered to kill is "dispassionate murder" in American law and is usually met with light sentences because they were forced to do it. So, what crimes has Diovalo actually committed? He stole some arrows and sold them to an old bitch. Doesn't really warrant eternal death loops, does it?

      Adding onto what i said, his attempted murder of his daughter and paranoia is also not counted because he has a disorder, which gets him an out via insanity.

      I don't know how you do stuff in America, but insanity makes a crime count less, it doesn't excuse it (in like, the rest of the world as far as i know, probably in the US too), and still requires the person to be locked up, i agree with the rest, but that part is just nonsense, also there weren't any cases of "dispassionate murder", people received orders to kill, but they also chose to join in in the first place.

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    • Red anvil wrote:
      Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Boysmith2003 wrote:
      CaessarC wrote:
      isnt the concept of hell is the eternal torture for grave sinners?
      Yes, which never made any sense to me. How the fuck do you recieve eternal punishment for being imperfect. The fuck?

      Anyway, i'm here to bring up something. Y'all are saying Diovalo deserves it because of what Kira and DIO did. Firstly, that's guilt by association, which is not direct. Diovalo never DIRECTLY killed those people, so those aren't his actions. That means that he is absolved from those crimes because he never committed them. All he did was steal some arrows and maybe killed some dudes during his time in the lower ranks of Passione. Gangsters kill people. It's a fact of life. Besdies, being forced to kill or being ordered to kill is "dispassionate murder" in American law and is usually met with light sentences because they were forced to do it. So, what crimes has Diovalo actually committed? He stole some arrows and sold them to an old bitch. Doesn't really warrant eternal death loops, does it?

      Adding onto what i said, his attempted murder of his daughter and paranoia is also not counted because he has a disorder, which gets him an out via insanity.
      I don't know how you do stuff in America, but insanity makes a crime count less, it doesn't excuse it (in like, the rest of the world as far as i know, probably in the US too), and still requires the person to be locked up, i agree with the rest, but that part is just nonsense, also there weren't any cases of "dispassionate murder", people received orders to kill, but they also chose to join in in the first place.

      In America we have something called the insanity plea. It means that you are absolved from your crime because you are insane/have a mental disorder, and can not be held liable. Secondly, Diovalo's only real crime was petty thievery, a very light crime by the standard of American law, meaing regarldess of Diovalo's paranoia disorder and Dissocative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities) he'd at most gotten a light slap on the wrist, maybe a month or two in prison. He's not getting much either way. Him being a gangster is excluded because at the time of the Arrow theft, Passione hadn't been established.

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Red anvil wrote:
      Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Boysmith2003 wrote:
      CaessarC wrote:
      isnt the concept of hell is the eternal torture for grave sinners?
      Yes, which never made any sense to me. How the fuck do you recieve eternal punishment for being imperfect. The fuck?

      Anyway, i'm here to bring up something. Y'all are saying Diovalo deserves it because of what Kira and DIO did. Firstly, that's guilt by association, which is not direct. Diovalo never DIRECTLY killed those people, so those aren't his actions. That means that he is absolved from those crimes because he never committed them. All he did was steal some arrows and maybe killed some dudes during his time in the lower ranks of Passione. Gangsters kill people. It's a fact of life. Besdies, being forced to kill or being ordered to kill is "dispassionate murder" in American law and is usually met with light sentences because they were forced to do it. So, what crimes has Diovalo actually committed? He stole some arrows and sold them to an old bitch. Doesn't really warrant eternal death loops, does it?

      Adding onto what i said, his attempted murder of his daughter and paranoia is also not counted because he has a disorder, which gets him an out via insanity.
      I don't know how you do stuff in America, but insanity makes a crime count less, it doesn't excuse it (in like, the rest of the world as far as i know, probably in the US too), and still requires the person to be locked up, i agree with the rest, but that part is just nonsense, also there weren't any cases of "dispassionate murder", people received orders to kill, but they also chose to join in in the first place.
      In America we have something called the insanity plea. It means that you are absolved from your crime because you are insane/have a mental disorder, and can not be held liable. Secondly, Diovalo's only real crime was petty thievery, a very light crime by the standard of American law, meaing regarldess of Diovalo's paranoia disorder and Dissocative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities) he'd at most gotten a light slap on the wrist, maybe a month or two in prison. He's not getting much either way. Him being a gangster is excluded because at the time of the Arrow theft, Passione hadn't been established.

      Also yes, dispassionate murder is being forced or ordered to kill by an enviorment or other party, also called the Numenbourg Defense, because it was famously used during the conviction and execution of Nazis. "Orders are orders" in their words. You make it sound like you wouldn't join your country to battle the side trying to wipe your country out/destroy it's prosperity.

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    • Sure, but the "I didn't know that willingly joining the mafia ment receiving orders to kill" excuse wouldn't classify a crime as dispassionate murder, plus, remember that American law has literally nothing to do with all of this, first because Diavolo has supernatural abilities (stand), which are not considered in any (contemporary) law in existance, second because Italian law is very different, and Diavolo would be sent in prison for life or in a recovery center for mentally ill people or stuff like that, as, mentally ill or not, if one is a danger to society it can't be let around free.

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    • But here in America, which is my only refferrence, we do things this way. For example, the soldiers of an army commit a war crime. They knew they'd inevitably have to kill, but it's still dispassionate because they were ordered Doesn't matter if they knew or not.

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    • Red anvil wrote:
      Sure, but the "I didn't know that willingly joining the mafia ment receiving orders to kill" excuse wouldn't classify a crime as dispassionate murder, plus, remember that American law has literally nothing to do with all of this, first because Diavolo has supernatural abilities (stand), which are not considered in any (contemporary) law in existance, second because Italian law is very different, and Diavolo would be sent in prison for life or in a recovery center for mentally ill people or stuff like that, as, mentally ill or not, if one is a danger to society it can't be let around free.

      By your logic, the exsistence of Stands nulifies all forms of law due to their supernatural origin. Doesn't matter. We'll apply it to the real world because we want to.

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    • Why is American law being brought up anyway? It has nothing to do with this, and if it's your only reference of law, then you should research more relevant countries and their laws. I'm tired of seeing this discussion go off track.

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    • Nobody deserves eternal punishment. Even if Diavolo deserved to suffer for his crimes, a just punishment should always have an end. 

      Think about what he has to experience. Some of his deaths would be extremely gruesome. Imagine having your liver taken out while you were still conscious, and how horrifying that would be. 

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    • To be fair I'm pretty sure when the universe reset his punishment did end. 

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    • No confirmation on that btw just something that would make sense. 

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    • 2A42 wrote: Nobody deserves eternal punishment. Even if Diavolo deserved to suffer for his crimes, a just punishment should always have an end. 

      Think about what he has to experience. Some of his deaths would be extremely gruesome. Imagine having your liver taken out while you were still conscious, and how horrifying that would be. 

      There are exceptions. Diavolo isn't also even nearly the worst we've seen in JoJo.

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      Why is American law being brought up anyway? It has nothing to do with this, and if it's your only reference of law, then you should research more relevant countries and their laws. I'm tired of seeing this discussion go off track.

      1. It's not going off track.

      2. I am American so i use American law. I don't care that he's Italian

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    • Lord Spectrum wrote:
      To be fair I'm pretty sure when the universe reset his punishment did end. 

      It didn't. GER nulifies everything. Diovalo is still in te loop.

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    • Okay I'm going to lay out the two things wrong about talking about American law

      1. The part doesn't take place AT ALL in America or anywhere outside of Italy for that matter

      2. Human made laws aren't the same as morals. This thread should be talking about whether what Diavolo did was morally correct, and not lawfully correct.

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    • yes. He fucking took lethal weapons, gave them to a woman who use them to create an army of insane stand users. He then proceded to use the weapon himself to create his own army, used that army to control, manipulate, and kill parts of itally. Again this man Crazy as fuck or not, is a legitimate danger to society and humanity itself, keeping him away from people let alone dead is the best option. You guys forget even if GER didnt do his thing, he would be rotting in hell as is, and honestly for a man who has a moral compass thats inverted nearly moreso than dio id really believe this wouldn't be so divided. He is most likely the greatest danger to itally as the person who ran passione, and commisioned multiple lackies that would kill and manipulate thousands. Torture or not he needed to be seperated from the rest of reality so he couldnt do harm

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    • Diavolo creating a new generation of bad stand users is one thing. But another thing is the fact that he burned down an entire town because his guardian discovered Diavolo's mom buried underground with her mouth sewn shut. It's also easy to assume he killed every single person up to Part 5 that had tried to learn his identity. He's also responsible for circulating drugs and corruption throughout Italy, which puts him in responsibility of unpredictable lives being ruined. I feel no need to repeat any more of this, as it's clear that Diavolo did deserve a substantial punishment for what he did. Maybe not an infinite death cycle, but definitely something painful.

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    • lets just set aside the infinite death part and just consider this. He most definately needed to be seperated from humanity for his crimes, he was directly responsible for 2 generations of stand users/murders, and indirectly caused dio's and the jojos to gain stands ontop of the indirectly creating their respective bad stand users

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      Okay I'm going to lay out the two things wrong about talking about American law

      1. The part doesn't take place AT ALL in America or anywhere outside of Italy for that matter

      2. Human made laws aren't the same as morals. This thread should be talking about whether what Diavolo did was morally correct, and not lawfully correct.

      Except we're talking about his crimes and how he'd be punished. His morality wasn't brought up because everyone and their fucking mother accepts that Diovalo has no morals. He's a gangster, and a paranoid one at that. Secondly, as i said before, I don't give two shits that he's Italian. I'm American, so i'm comparing it to the laws of my homeland.

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    • Jbyrdab wrote:
      lets just set aside the infinite death part and just consider this. He most definately needed to be seperated from humanity for his crimes, he was directly responsible for 2 generations of stand users/murders, and indirectly caused dio's and the jojos to gain stands ontop of the indirectly creating their respective bad stand users

      Again, Guilt by association. Yoshiro Kira gave Yoshikage Kira Killer Queen, not Diovalo. Enya The Hag gave DIO (and by extension the Joestars) their Stands. Also almost all  Dio's assassins  had Stands from birth and weren't products of the arrow.

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    • Jbyrdab wrote:
      yes. He fucking took lethal weapons, gave them to a woman who use them to create an army of insane stand users. He then proceded to use the weapon himself to create his own army, used that army to control, manipulate, and kill parts of itally. Again this man Crazy as fuck or not, is a legitimate danger to society and humanity itself, keeping him away from people let alone dead is the best option. You guys forget even if GER didnt do his thing, he would be rotting in hell as is, and honestly for a man who has a moral compass thats inverted nearly moreso than dio id really believe this wouldn't be so divided. He is most likely the greatest danger to itally as the person who ran passione, and commisioned multiple lackies that would kill and manipulate thousands. Torture or not he needed to be seperated from the rest of reality so he couldnt do harm

      He'd still be locked up via his disorder, but he wouldn't be prosecuted. The term "insanity plea" exsists. Second, nobody knew the Arrows had that kind of power. Sure you could stab someone, but they could easily survive, and many User's did survive. Just look at Polpo's test. Quite literally everyone who we saw in that part of Italy (Buccerati's Gang, Giorno, and a good majority of the first villains) were given Stands via Polpo having Black Sabbath stab them. They lived. So not lethal weapons. They're just old ornate arrows. They go for good cash. Diovalo therefore stole one and made a quick buck. His only crime is larceny. Stop using guilt by association.

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    • By the way, those "insane" people were all mind controlled via DIO's flesh buds or directly paid mercenaries.

      Passione is a mob organization. They're paid. Even if they don't want to do it, they will (except when Diovalo  crossess the line (Buccerati and his group))

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    • Jbyrdab wrote:
      yes. He fucking took lethal weapons, gave them to a woman who use them to create an army of insane stand users. He then proceded to use the weapon himself to create his own army, used that army to control, manipulate, and kill parts of itally. Again this man Crazy as fuck or not, is a legitimate danger to society and humanity itself, keeping him away from people let alone dead is the best option. You guys forget even if GER didnt do his thing, he would be rotting in hell as is, and honestly for a man who has a moral compass thats inverted nearly moreso than dio id really believe this wouldn't be so divided. He is most likely the greatest danger to Italy as the person who ran passione, and commisioned multiple lackies that would kill and manipulate thousands. Torture or not he needed to be seperated from the rest of reality so he couldnt do harm

      So... do stands turn their owners into killers? I don't think so, stands are nothing but tools, they are only used for murder if the user is that type of person, so quit blaming everything on Diavolo, he DID NOT create the lackeys nor did he make them evil, he just ruled over them, he is responsible for other things, not this. Also Dio killed for fun, Diavolo kills for business and what he calls necessity, bot not justifiable, but Dio is at least 1000 times worse.

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Zodazzle wrote:
      Okay I'm going to lay out the two things wrong about talking about American law

      1. The part doesn't take place AT ALL in America or anywhere outside of Italy for that matter

      2. Human made laws aren't the same as morals. This thread should be talking about whether what Diavolo did was morally correct, and not lawfully correct.

      Except we're talking about his crimes and how he'd be punished. His morality wasn't brought up because everyone and their fucking mother accepts that Diovalo has no morals. He's a gangster, and a paranoid one at that. Secondly, as i said before, I don't give two shits that he's Italian. I'm American, so i'm comparing it to the laws of my homeland.

      Are you confused or something? It's not about Diavolo being Italian, it's about the fact that HE is in Italy. And if you don't give a shit about that too, then you are just being lazy and aren't actually arguing anything credible. If you want to start arguing about how Diavolo would be punished, stop talking about American law and start learning what it means to follow another country's laws. It's like going to a country like Germany, breaking a law there because you didn't know it was illegal there, and then using the excuse that you are American and it's not illegal in America.

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Zodazzle wrote:
      Okay I'm going to lay out the two things wrong about talking about American law

      1. The part doesn't take place AT ALL in America or anywhere outside of Italy for that matter

      2. Human made laws aren't the same as morals. This thread should be talking about whether what Diavolo did was morally correct, and not lawfully correct.

      Except we're talking about his crimes and how he'd be punished. His morality wasn't brought up because everyone and their fucking mother accepts that Diovalo has no morals. He's a gangster, and a paranoid one at that. Secondly, as i said before, I don't give two shits that he's Italian. I'm American, so i'm comparing it to the laws of my homeland.
      Are you confused or something? It's not about Diavolo being Italian, it's about the fact that HE is in Italy. And if you don't give a shit about that too, then you are just being lazy and aren't actually arguing anything credible. If you want to start arguing about how Diavolo would be punished, stop talking about American law and start learning what it means to follow another country's laws. It's like going to a country like Germany, breaking a law there because you didn't know it was illegal there, and then using the excuse that you are American and it's not illegal in America.

      Except i don't. I don't live there and therefore have no reason to follow any of Italy's shit laws. I'm going to follow American law, and keep doing it. 

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    • This isn't about following Italy's laws. If you want to get the actual punishments that Diavolo will have, you need to look at Italy's laws and see what they would do. Of course you don't need to follow them, but you are not going to be getting the true answer if you apply American laws to that. And one last thing, it's really close minded to only talk about American laws and insult another country's laws despite their "shit laws" being the only things that are credible in the discussion.

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      This isn't about following Italy's laws. If you want to get the actual punishments that Diavolo will have, you need to look at Italy's laws and see what they would do. Of course you don't need to follow them, but you are not going to be getting the true answer if you apply American laws to that. And one last thing, it's really close minded to only talk about American laws and insult another country's laws despite their "shit laws" being the only things that are credible in the discussion.

      I don't live in Italy, so i'll use what i have. I dislike the country for being part of socialist Europe, and no longer have any respect for it's system, so i'm ignoring it. No they aren't the only things credible. I can apply dear old Diovalo to any law system and the result would be the same. He'd be locked in an asylum and kept there, due to insanity. Regardless of what system used. It really doesn't matter which one.

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    • Red anvil wrote:
      Jbyrdab wrote:
      yes. He fucking took lethal weapons, gave them to a woman who use them to create an army of insane stand users. He then proceded to use the weapon himself to create his own army, used that army to control, manipulate, and kill parts of itally. Again this man Crazy as fuck or not, is a legitimate danger to society and humanity itself, keeping him away from people let alone dead is the best option. You guys forget even if GER didnt do his thing, he would be rotting in hell as is, and honestly for a man who has a moral compass thats inverted nearly moreso than dio id really believe this wouldn't be so divided. He is most likely the greatest danger to Italy as the person who ran passione, and commisioned multiple lackies that would kill and manipulate thousands. Torture or not he needed to be seperated from the rest of reality so he couldnt do harm
      So... do stands turn their owners into killers? I don't think so, stands are nothing but tools, they are only used for murder if the user is that type of person, so quit blaming everything on Diavolo, he DID NOT create the lackeys nor did he make them evil, he just ruled over them, he is responsible for other things, not this. Also Dio killed for fun, Diavolo kills for business and what he calls necessity, bot not justifiable, but Dio is at least 1000 times worse.

      Stands are a manifestation of the soul so a murderous being will have a muderous Stand.

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    • Are you willing to back up your statement that every country will lock up someone like Diavolo in an asylum with proof that Italy actually does that? No, apparently not because you are just that ignorant and lazy. And I'm not sure what grudges you could possibly gain from socialist countries.

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      Are you willing to back up your statement that every country will lock up someone like Diavolo in an asylum with proof that Italy actually does that? No, apparently not because you are just that ignorant and lazy. And I'm not sure what grudges you could possibly gain from socialist countries.

      1. I did It's the insanity plea, of whic i explained in detail in an earlier post.

      2. Instead of calling me out on it, how about you shut the fuck up and let the actually intelligent beings hold arguments, okay? You hqave no evidence and are just screaming to scream like the fool you are.

      3. Socialist anything means it's an agent of a retarded utopian pipe dream. When you get down to it it's just stupid.

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    • I'm calling for all parties to please calm down and not insult people in threads.

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    • And i'm fully capable of ignoring you.

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Red anvil wrote:
      Jbyrdab wrote:
      yes. He fucking took lethal weapons, gave them to a woman who use them to create an army of insane stand users. He then proceded to use the weapon himself to create his own army, used that army to control, manipulate, and kill parts of itally. Again this man Crazy as fuck or not, is a legitimate danger to society and humanity itself, keeping him away from people let alone dead is the best option. You guys forget even if GER didnt do his thing, he would be rotting in hell as is, and honestly for a man who has a moral compass thats inverted nearly moreso than dio id really believe this wouldn't be so divided. He is most likely the greatest danger to Italy as the person who ran passione, and commisioned multiple lackies that would kill and manipulate thousands. Torture or not he needed to be seperated from the rest of reality so he couldnt do harm
      So... do stands turn their owners into killers? I don't think so, stands are nothing but tools, they are only used for murder if the user is that type of person, so quit blaming everything on Diavolo, he DID NOT create the lackeys nor did he make them evil, he just ruled over them, he is responsible for other things, not this. Also Dio killed for fun, Diavolo kills for business and what he calls necessity, both not justifiable, but Dio is at least 1000 times worse.
      Stands are a manifestation of the soul so a murderous being will have a muderous Stand.

      That's what i said, the vice-versa isn't true though, that was my point.

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    • Jbyrdab wrote: He is still a dangerous menace to society, just because he is insane doesnt excuse the amount of horrible murders and massacres that happened under his command of passione, remember, he got a majority of itally hooked on stand psychic drugs, he created multiple genocidal maniacs by giving them stands. unlike george where dio stole the mask, diavolo SOLD them to enya, he intentionally gave them to her, dio stole the mask and did something entirely unpredictable. Also the arrows were found in greenland back in 1970 and at that point they were discovered to have a "humanity genociding virus (aka stand magic)", they were lost and found in egypt in which diavolo stole them and sold them to enya the hag, but kept one for king crimson, his subordinates stands, and all the people black sabath killed/gave stands. what else do i say here, infinite punishment aside, like he literally started a chain of events leading to horrible world/universe threatening catastrophe while taking part in the killings. Seriously if diavolo didnt steal arrows which at the time were known to outright murder people, then all this never would have happened and well to be frank, the amount of ridiculous crap that the jojo's had to put up with until part 8 (majority of part 7 too) wouldnt have happened. Infinite death, for creating essentially ghost terrorism of infinite preportions, seems fair enough

      Again, you're factually wrong in your description of events. The Arrows weren't found in Greenland, but then lost. They were dug up in Egypt. Supposedly, they were made from the same meteorite, but no information was given as to how they would have even gotten to Egypt in the first place, nor how people weren't dying just by touching said Arrowheads. Pretty sure the guy who just touched the meteorite died, even if he was granted lightning powers. Stand Arrows don't kill you if they grant you a Stand, nor do they kill on skin contact.

      The entire meteor claim came from Polnareff, presumably dug up from the Internet, since it was likely after he lost the ability to walk. And we know what a reliable source of information the Internet is on things that sound like urban legends or creepy-pastas. We don't know if it even happened, and even he never said they dug up any Arrowheads there.

      You're on a wikia. Maybe you should consider reading the relevant pages before posting, when someone tells you you're getting things wrong.

      Apologies if this is tangential to the current discussion, but the repeated errors in Jbyrdab's version of events are grinding my gears. Especially after how much time and effort I put into correcting them in my last post.

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    • Nixeu wrote:

      Jbyrdab wrote: He is still a dangerous menace to society, just because he is insane doesnt excuse the amount of horrible murders and massacres that happened under his command of passione, remember, he got a majority of itally hooked on stand psychic drugs, he created multiple genocidal maniacs by giving them stands. unlike george where dio stole the mask, diavolo SOLD them to enya, he intentionally gave them to her, dio stole the mask and did something entirely unpredictable. Also the arrows were found in greenland back in 1970 and at that point they were discovered to have a "humanity genociding virus (aka stand magic)", they were lost and found in egypt in which diavolo stole them and sold them to enya the hag, but kept one for king crimson, his subordinates stands, and all the people black sabath killed/gave stands. what else do i say here, infinite punishment aside, like he literally started a chain of events leading to horrible world/universe threatening catastrophe while taking part in the killings. Seriously if diavolo didnt steal arrows which at the time were known to outright murder people, then all this never would have happened and well to be frank, the amount of ridiculous crap that the jojo's had to put up with until part 8 (majority of part 7 too) wouldnt have happened. Infinite death, for creating essentially ghost terrorism of infinite preportions, seems fair enough

      Again, you're factually wrong in your description of events. The Arrows weren't found in Greenland, but then lost. They were dug up in Egypt. Supposedly, they were made from the same meteorite, but no information was given as to how they would have even gotten to Egypt in the first place, nor how people weren't dying just by touching said Arrowheads. Pretty sure the guy who just touched the meteorite died, even if he was granted lightning powers. Stand Arrows don't kill you if they grant you a Stand, nor do they kill on skin contact.

      The entire meteor claim came from Polnareff, presumably dug up from the Internet, since it was likely after he lost the ability to walk. And we know what a reliable source of information the Internet is on things that sound like urban legends or creepy-pastas. We don't know if it even happened, and even he never said they dug up any Arrowheads there.

      You're on a wikia. Maybe you should consider reading the relevant pages before posting, when someone tells you you're getting things wrong.

      Apologies if this is tangential to the current discussion, but the repeated errors in Jbyrdab's version of events are grinding my gears. Especially after how much time and effort I put into correcting them in my last post.

      Entirely understandable. (pfft puns) Stand Arrows actually do kill you, it's just your spirit saves you. The arrow forces your soul and guard and forces a Stand manifestation. Since most Stands appear to be recognized by the rest of the world as ESP, the Internet would actually be quite reliable in this case.

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote: Entirely understandable. (pfft puns) Stand Arrows actually do kill you, it's just your spirit saves you. The arrow forces your soul and guard and forces a Stand manifestation. Since most Stands appear to be recognized by the rest of the world as ESP, the Internet would actually be quite reliable in this case.

      The Internet would be the only source of information, besides other Stand users and maybe the Speedwagon Foundation. That doesn't make it a reliable source. I mean, I know it predates the Internet, but Jotaro's conviction that he was possessed at the beginning of Part 3 is a pretty good example of how even Stand users can be very wrong about the nature of their powers. The nature of the Internet is probably only going to make that sort of confusion worse.

      And yeah, I know that a Stand Arrows can kill...when they cut you. Pretty sure the meteorite killed from contact, and killed when it granted the guy superpowers/a Stand, to boot. Plus, they would need to get from Greenland to Egypt, when Greenland was pretty much unexplored until the Vikings got there. And then end up inside a tomb or other archeological dig-site. That's...pretty difficult to accept for me. Maybe the Arrows have some aspect to their making that restricts the virus and makes it easier to survive, and maybe they ended up in Egypt by some complex series of coincidences. But even Polnareff called it a "hypothesis", IIRC. Meaning even he's not sure it's accurate.

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    • Yes and no..., the meteorite was found in greenland, if what you say is true especially about vikings. Then theres a good chance that the norse gods were stand users if not stands themselves. regardless if you want to call out a series called bizarre adventure for having some detail thats hard to accept, then I dont know what to say. arrows normally only seek out those who have the fighting spirit to withstand the strand of virus, but they can be forced into someone. Not to mention the arrows were made by a wizard from the meteorite(only info we have on their creation), so its entirely possible a wizard could ya know, get from greenland to egypt. Either way i do believe that since the only information about them is from that source and that nothing has really contradicted this, its best assumed that its correct. Either way regardless of that fact, they did find that it does kill people without proper spirit, considering black sabath, even diavolo knew that. He still was the starting point for most of the bizzare adventure of part 3, he still caused alot of damage and personally he deserved an infinite loop, death or not he needs to be seperated from influencing anyone else. Thats just my stance

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    • There is no reasonable chance that the norse gods were stand users or stands. And the guy that made the arrows wasn't a wizard, he was just some random guy. Another thing to note is that the stand arrows might kill people just like that, since two excavators died while working on the meteorite due to getting cut on it. But the stand arrows might of been made in a way that makes them less lethal. It's strange.

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    • Mr. Waddle Dee wrote:
      Considering he can be held responcible of Dio accquiring his Stand, Yoshikage's murders after acquiring his Stand and other mass murders the only person in the series that might deserve it more than him is Kars.

      why kars nigga?

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    • Kars is the worst if you think about it, he caused the extinction of the pillarmen by not leaving any females and saving 3 other pillarmen and himself, his own specie, it's like... if a man killed 99.99% of the human population and the remaining few were all unable to reproduce. It was not in the present, nor it was an event that directly caused death of introduced characters etc, so it's easy to overlook, but that's easily the worst thing that anyone has done, with the possible exception of the whole mess at the end of part 6, but i don't really know.

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    • Red anvil wrote:
      Kars is the worst if you think about it, he caused the extinction of the pillarmen by not leaving any females and saving 3 other pillarmen and himself, his own specie, it's like... if a man killed 99.99% of the human population and the remaining few were all unable to reproduce. It was not in the present, nor it was an event that directly caused death of introduced characters etc, so it's easy to overlook, but that's easily the worst thing that anyone has done, with the possible exception of the whole mess at the end of part 6, but i don't really know.

      Kars was attacked first for attempting to better his race. As said, the rays of the sun are their end. Kars and his creation of the Masks was soley to eliminate the sun as a threat.  He was forced to kill his people as a means of self defense and couldn't leave the women alive because they also revolted to attack him.

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    • Jbyrdab wrote:
      Yes and no..., the meteorite was found in greenland, if what you say is true especially about vikings. Then theres a good chance that the norse gods were stand users if not stands themselves. regardless if you want to call out a series called bizarre adventure for having some detail thats hard to accept, then I dont know what to say. arrows normally only seek out those who have the fighting spirit to withstand the strand of virus, but they can be forced into someone. Not to mention the arrows were made by a wizard from the meteorite(only info we have on their creation), so its entirely possible a wizard could ya know, get from greenland to egypt. Either way i do believe that since the only information about them is from that source and that nothing has really contradicted this, its best assumed that its correct. Either way regardless of that fact, they did find that it does kill people without proper spirit, considering black sabath, even diavolo knew that. He still was the starting point for most of the bizzare adventure of part 3, he still caused alot of damage and personally he deserved an infinite loop, death or not he needs to be seperated from influencing anyone else. Thats just my stance

      As discussed previously, he cannot be held at any fault because he's afficted with extreme paranoia and Dissociatve Identity Disorder. He's insane and cannot be held liable. Your poorly grammared point about the Norse "gods" being Stand user's is false, but nontheless interesting. However, i must stress that wizards don't exsist in JoJo. The first ever Stand User in the main timeline was a result of the meteorite. Upon being cut he gain electrokinetics and then later died.  He was never a wizard, he just happened to come into contact with the supernatural.

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    • Kars' attempt to "better his race" came off as more of a crazed plan to the other pillar men, and it would disrupt their way of life due to the increased hunger that Stone Masks bring upon. So Kars wasn't really bettering his race, he just thought he was. And pillar men are very intelligent, so we can assume that the tribe wasn't being very irrational.

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    • Kars bettered his race though. They got great power ( a little more hunger won't do too much.) and when the Aja gets found they get sun immunity and the power to bend life. Good deal in my book.

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    • Most people who sympathize with diavolo have absolutely no concept of hell, which is rather telling. The afterlife exists in jojo so it's safe to assume that heaven and hell also exist. You people complain about nobody deserve eternal damnation but don't day a thing about the good people who experience eternal paradise in heaven. If diavolo had a natural death , he would still go to hell regardless. Btw, having a mental disorder doesn't lessen his crimes in the slightest. Everyone is responsible for their own actions

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    • I don't get how ppl think that Diavolo is the one with the Mental Disorders to begin with which would explain his actions. It usually would only count if he wasn't aware of what he does, but he is aware. He's literally the Antichrist, evil since birth. He's just paranoid, but he's mostly calm while Doppio is the one who hallucinates stuff or has shown to easily forget things as he has a headache. Like @DeathCrisisGod said, if Heaven and Hell exist, then he would get in Hell so it's no difference from what he got.

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Kars bettered his race though. They got great power ( a little more hunger won't do too much.) and when the Aja gets found they get sun immunity and the power to bend life. Good deal in my book.

      Except there's no "they", because "they" were all killed. 

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Kars bettered his race though. They got great power ( a little more hunger won't do too much.) and when the Aja gets found they get sun immunity and the power to bend life. Good deal in my book.

      It isn't just a "little bit of hunger". Otherwise it wouldn't of been any problem to the tribe. And really only one person gets immunity to the sun and the power to bend life. Beyond the fact that the pillar men aren't trying to be number one in the world. They knew they were fine in their current place, and Kars was pushing it too far in all of their eyes.

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    • Zodazzle wrote:
      Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Kars bettered his race though. They got great power ( a little more hunger won't do too much.) and when the Aja gets found they get sun immunity and the power to bend life. Good deal in my book.
      It isn't just a "little bit of hunger". Otherwise it wouldn't of been any problem to the tribe. And really only one person gets immunity to the sun and the power to bend life. Beyond the fact that the pillar men aren't trying to be number one in the world. They knew they were fine in their current place, and Kars was pushing it too far in all of their eyes.

      1. More Aja Masks can be made as long as the stone of Aja is intact. 

      2. The entire race getting to Utimate Kars's level was Kars's original plan.

      3. The whole point of evolution (assuming that it exsists) is to progress. You can't stagnate, or you die. That's Kars's whole philosophy. 

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    • Anyway, back on the original topic, all of you need to stop condeming Diovalo. We don't condemn the insane because it isn't their fault they do this shit. 

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote: Anyway, back on the original topic, all of you need to stop condeming Diovalo. We don't condemn the insane because it isn't their fault they do this shit. 

      Then whose fault is it? Diavolo was well aware of his actions, he's been a Mafia Boss for over a Decade and is responsible for Mass Murder, Selling Drugs to kids and other shit. By your logic, Kira is also not at fault for killing 48 women.

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    • But he burned an entire town down, hid his still-alive mother underground for years, killed so many people, started a mafia in Italy that circulated drugs, tried to kill his daughter, and you want him to NOT get any punishment? Even if he's insane, that's way too much to not get a punishment for.

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    • He's paranoid and has split personality. No prosecution because he's certifiably insane.

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    • That's how we Americans do it anyway.

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    • Being paranoid after doing horrendous crimes should be self-evident. And we don't know whether he is the Split Personality or Doppio, in fact, the Anime implies that it's him, so he has no excuses here.

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    • Unforgiven0815 wrote:
      Being paranoid after doing horrendous crimes should be self-evident.

      And we don't know whether he is the Split Personality or Doppio, in fact, the Anime implies that it's him, so he has no excuses here.

      still that Dissociatve Identity means he's still insane, fuck the paranoia, he's still not prosecuted. 

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    • Doppio is the insane one, we can't come to a result here cuz we don't know who was there first, but Diavolo tortured and hid their mom, killed the priest and burned down the whole village as soon as he appeared. He's a Psychopath, he is why he is not because of Circumstances or the environment, but because he was born that way. He is aware of what he does, its not like he doesn't realize it like other Criminals who end up in Mental Hospitals. So when someone's aware as they commit Mass Murder, Drug Dealing and other shit, it doesn't matter whether he got the GER Treatment or not, he would've been in Hell regardless.

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    • Diavolo is in Italy. So let's subject him to America's laws, because Italy doesn't matter in this. Italy is just you know, the place that the entire part takes place in and where Diavolo was born and lived in for his entire life. But you know, even though America is completely unrelated, let's use their laws anyways. Because fuck Italy and their government, America is the only country with applicable laws.

      You see what the problem is, and why this argument is going nowhere.

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    • Aight let's they this out again, because you're simple minded.

      1: I do not live in Italy. I live in America. THEREFORE i subject him to my country's laws. 

      2: Thus, by deductive reasoning, that means I don't give a shit about Italy's laws. I don't live there, they don't affect me, so I shouldn't care.

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    • Diavolo (devil in italian), got his personal hell.

      Did he deserve it? I don't think anyone would deserve something like that, regardless of religious beliefs.

      many people accuse the guy of creating stand users directly or not,  this does not make much sense to me if you reason like that it means you also blame who sells guns for the many deaths caused by said weapons. 

      he did many despicable and messed up things tough, some that make you think at times that he maybe deserved what he got.  He needed to be punished and i think is quite insane not punishing him just because he had mental problems, he deserved prison for the rest of his life at the very least, eternal suffering tough? that's just too much for anyone.

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    • Jbyrdab wrote:
      Yes and no..., the meteorite was found in greenland, if what you say is true especially about vikings. Then theres a good chance that the norse gods were stand users if not stands themselves. regardless if you want to call out a series called bizarre adventure for having some detail thats hard to accept, then I dont know what to say. arrows normally only seek out those who have the fighting spirit to withstand the strand of virus, but they can be forced into someone. Not to mention the arrows were made by a wizard from the meteorite(only info we have on their creation), so its entirely possible a wizard could ya know, get from greenland to egypt. Either way i do believe that since the only information about them is from that source and that nothing has really contradicted this, its best assumed that its correct. Either way regardless of that fact, they did find that it does kill people without proper spirit, considering black sabath, even diavolo knew that. He still was the starting point for most of the bizzare adventure of part 3, he still caused alot of damage and personally he deserved an infinite loop, death or not he needs to be seperated from influencing anyone else. Thats just my stance

      Stop adding things not in the text to your statements and acting like they're true. As others have stated, the creator was never said to be a wizard, and the guy who discovered Greenland was Erik the Red, aka Erik Thorvaldson, which indicates that Thor predated the Viking colonization of Greenland. As does a lot of other archeological evidence I won't even get into.

      I've also already mentioned how the Arrows and the Meteorite act different, and thus seem contradictory. Perhaps you could argue the Arrows were worked in some way to reduce the strength of the virus, but I find "they're supernatural artifacts that awaken the latent power of the soul, which can overwhelm or kill the person granted the power" to be far more consistent with the rest of what we know about them than Polnareff's meteorite/virus claim. As to their origins, who knows? Maybe they're ancient Egyptian artifacts that really did have some connection to the existence of their mythology and gods. Maybe similar artifacts also exist and explain the same thing for other ancient religions. Maybe they were made by the First Jojo, Joshua ben Joseph (this is a joke, I just love the fact that you can argue that Jesus is a Jojo). Who knows?

      DeathCrisisGod wrote: Most people who sympathize with diavolo have absolutely no concept of hell, which is rather telling. The afterlife exists in jojo so it's safe to assume that heaven and hell also exist. You people complain about nobody deserve eternal damnation but don't day a thing about the good people who experience eternal paradise in heaven. If diavolo had a natural death , he would still go to hell regardless. Btw, having a mental disorder doesn't lessen his crimes in the slightest. Everyone is responsible for their own actions

      Uh...no, assuming that Heaven and Hell exist just because there's an afterlife doesn't actually follow in the slightest. Hell, there's just as much reason to think it's Hades, not the Christian afterlife (in that both Mercury and Jesus seem to exist in Jojo). And, if Hell exists, how come Kira's soul seems to have escaped from it in Dead Man's Questions? If I recall correctly, he got dragged away by the Hands like Cheap Trick did, so, if there was actually a Hell, he seems likely to have gone there. Him coming back with no memories actually acts as a point in favor of the Greek afterlife and the River Lethe existing, if you really want to argue the point.

      Moreover, the question is not "would Diavolo go there anyway?" The question is "does he deserve it?" To which I would answer "infinite punishment for finite harm seems unequal, mathematically speaking, but it's really up to personal judgement, and a bit of a pointless question, since it doesn't change his fate." I just have issues with some of the reasoning/evidence presented. Sometimes on both sides. Like the Insanity argument, which I kinda...look, insanity really only excuses so much. And also, not all mental illnesses are sufficient for an insanity plea, and Dissociative Identity Disorder (I think that's the current term for Split Personality Disorder?) is...controversial, to say the least. Paranoia usually isn't enough on it's own, either. Schizophrenia is, maybe Bipolar in some cases, but even then, plenty of people with those issues, even when unmedicated, aren't even remotely violent.

      Boysmith2003 wrote: 3. The whole point of evolution (assuming that it exsists) is to progress. You can't stagnate, or you die. That's Kars's whole philosophy. 

      Incorrect. Evolution has no point, nor is it to "progress". Evolution, in it's simplest form, is the observation that self-propagating systems that cease functioning are bad at reproducing themselves, and thus the only systems likely to last and remain for any period of time are the ones good at not ceasing to function. Thus, the ones that adapt to their changing environment survive the longest, and slowly, they become better suited to their environment. Really, it's about studying shifts in the frequency of alleles over time, but that's sort of the most basic form of it.

      Funnily enough, effective stasis is actually thought to be rather common in evolution. So long as nothing in the environment shifts so much that lots of members of a given species start dying without reproducing, species often maintain the same features for long periods of time. It's less "survival of the fittest" and more "survival of the good enough".

      There is a sort of progress, in that species do tend to become more adapted to their niches, but there's the counterbalance that too much adaptation tends to leave you vulnerable to major shifts. Most penguins do fine in the Antarctica, but not so well in the Nile River, whereas crocodiles fare well in the Nile (and many other places), but not so good in really cold environments. Like most optimization problems, there's usually a trade-off, rather than an absolutely and completely objective improvement. See also: revolvers don't jam, automatics do, but automatics shoot more bullets faster, or other such things.

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    • Nixeu
      Nixeu removed this reply because:
      Was trying to edit, and didn't.
      21:43, April 14, 2019
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    • Boysmith2003 wrote: Aight let's they this out again, because you're simple minded.

      1: I do not live in Italy. I live in America. THEREFORE i subject him to my country's laws. 

      2: Thus, by deductive reasoning, that means I don't give a shit about Italy's laws. I don't live there, they don't affect me, so I shouldn't care.

      You do realize a legal defense means jack-sh*t when we're talking about moral judgments, yes? And US laws don't apply to Italian citizens, so claiming he should be free from blame or punishment (which an Insanity Defense usually doesn't get you, it just gets you psychiatric help and a padded cell over jail) because the laws of your country say so would be laughed out of any court, beyond your own. And anyone arguing the same, but for another country, would rightfully be laughed out of a US court. Usually, anyway, unless the crime crossed borders, which is always a legal clusterf*ck, but I digress. In the same way that you don't give a sh*t about Italy's laws, Italy doesn't give a sh*t about US laws (except on rare occasions when both sets of laws could apply).

      I also find it rather odd that you're using US laws as the entire basis for your moral framework, and assuming it to be that of others. It's a rare person who can't find a single law that's tricky for their morality to handle in their country, and often they can quite easily find laws they flat-out consider stupid, or even immoral or harmful. That's why laws are updated, added, altered, and repealed quite regularly, and why some laws that are on the books are really only ever enforced if you manage to really annoy the local cops and/or the DA. Like loitering, or jaywalking.

      That's not even getting into the assumption that all US courts would consider Diavolo insane enough to not be responsible for his actions. I guarantee you that plenty of judges would disagree. Diavolo might be paranoid, but his paranoia seems to spring from an understanding of "right and wrong", or at least "illegal and legal", and the consequences of that. And that understanding happens to be a major factor in many determinations of whether the insanity defense is actually valid. So yeah, I could very easily see a court judging Diavolo, by himself, responsible for his actions. Doppio...Doppio complicates matters, but even he's probably aware he's breaking the law, and just doesn't really care that much. Neither of them are so insane that they're not aware of reality, at least for the most part, barring Doppio's...creative choices of "phone". That doesn't really affect his ability to determine if he's breaking the law, or if what he's doing is right or wrong, though.

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    • Boysmith2003 wrote:
      Aight let's they this out again, because you're simple minded.

      1: I do not live in Italy. I live in America. THEREFORE i subject him to my country's laws. 

      2: Thus, by deductive reasoning, that means I don't give a shit about Italy's laws. I don't live there, they don't affect me, so I shouldn't care.

      I think you might be the one that's simple minded, since you are just ignoring all of the world's other countries and their laws.

      Now, the only problem with figuring out the true and actually relevant answer to the question of "would Diavolo be punished for his actions?", is that I found the place where that law might be contained; it being the Italian penal code. The problem is I can't find an english version of it or the three volumes. So, the mental disorder part is tricky to answer. The closest parallel I could find to Diavolo was Paolo Di Lauro, who was the head of an organization in the Camorra, a mafia group in Naples. He was sentenced to 30 years for drug trafficking and extortion from what I've read, and that is my final verdict for what Diavolo would get. To be fair, 30 years of prison sounds better than a lifetime of dying.

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